[ListeningPie]

I’m not I the states and only see America through the media and social media like this.

You ask why did they need hope, do you have an answer why did they need hope? What’s so bad in America that people could be manipulated as you put it.

It feels a like a repeat of Brexit, where people vote against there own material gains to punish others because that’s the quickest high they can get https://youtu.be/GPgatTnVvVY

[YZF]

Brexit is a good example. I think many people just can't extrapolate/predict the results of their actions and understand the policy (assuming politicians are even honest about it in the first place). For most objective smart people Brexit seemed terrible (hey lemme reinforce my ego a little) but expecting your average person to be able to understand that is tough. Also there is a parallel universe somewhere where Brexit maybe has a positive outcome. These things aren't fully deterministic. Similarly people always seem to buy the immigration crime and jobs schtick. And it's also not false that if you open your borders to a stream of people it is likely to change what your country looks like. There's a reason most countries don't have completely open borders and give everyone citizenship the day they set their foot past the border.

What's so bad in America? You'll be surprised how many people have hard lives in America. A lot. And I think when it's bad there, it's really bad.

[kerkeslager]

Okay, but I've known a lot of people in America who've had fucking terrible lives--with the same kinds of problems that Trump voters have--and didn't vote for Trump.

I mean what's your point here? Okay, so this guy I know had a terrible life and now he's a Trumper--you want me to say it's just okay that he wants to kill my trans friends in a very literal way (as in he's accumulating guns, touts the "kill your local pedophile" slogan, and openly states that trans people are pedophiles)? Sure, I can empathize with the guy having lost everything when he was younger, but empathy doesn't mean we have to ignore the danger he poses.

[YZF]

It's never ok to threaten or use violence against people. But there is a range of opinions on trans rights from should man who declare themselves to be female allowed to participate in woman's sports (why do we have woman's sports in the first place?) or use woman's change rooms, to whether the state should fund sex change operations, to questions around when minors can make decisions about their body vs. parents opinions vs. protection of children rights.

What you're describing is never right and should be dealt with by law enforcement. That's likely far from where many of Republican voters are on this topic.

[kerkeslager]

> What you're describing is never right and should be dealt with by law enforcement. That's likely far from where many of Republican voters are on this topic.

I mean, sure, even the guy I mentioned doesn't directly say he wants to kill trans people.

But you remove all healthcare and social support for trans people, and they start committing suicide--as anyone would given those conditions. You remove all protections for trans people, and they start getting killed. Republican leadership can keep their hands clean--they just look away and let the fringe do the dirty work. And the same is true for a dozen other groups. For example, there's no real controversy about the homeless (most agree that homelessness is bad)--you just look away and do nothing and they die of homelessness.

All that adds up to that a vote for Republicans is a vote that results in these people dying. Whether your opinion is that those people should die or not, is sort of irrelevant, if your vote results in them dying.

You seem to be under the impression that if a Republican voter feels that trans people deserve to live in their head, that means they aren't voting for trans people to die, but that's simply not the case. If you believe in your head that trans people deserve to live, and then vote for a guy who does a bunch of stuff that kills trans people, you're voting to kill trans people, and your fuzzy kind feelings in your head are irrelevant.

And finally: what country do you live in where trans people can safely call law enforcement? Because it's not the US.

[dgfitz]

> But you remove all healthcare and social support for trans people

What does that even mean? Healthcare is a mess for everyone already. Social support? What does “social support” in the context of trans people actually entail? Spending enough time and resources to normalize the concept? Support what? How?

If you think somehow bigots will eventually change their tune, I have a bridge to sell you.