[nopassrecover]

> Do you actually believe that calling someone a sexist (however 'careless' it might be) is an attack on the male gender as a whole

Keyword being 'often' not 'always', and it's usually particular to the male/female gender issue rather than all majorities/minorities. In particular, if you read the article you'll see that both the critic who claimed sexism and the woman being critiqued throw the term "boy's clubs" about. I've found it's socially quite acceptable to imply assumed male misogyny, but maybe my 'often' should be degraded to 'sometimes'?

> A problem with reverse racism/sexism arguments is that they allow people who are secure in their positions to brush aside the racist/sexist undercurrents of society

Right, which makes it all the more important to ensure that when racism/sexism claims are made, they are made legitimately and not casually, lest they be used as examples to dismiss, or ignore, genuine issues.

> Just because people with axes to grind can use gender as a smear (an inept one, in this case) to paint someone as a sexist, doesn't make it right to imply we as males are somehow being attacked or victimized

This probably comes back to my first point, but look I think the points are orthogonal. We agree that using social issues as a smear tactic is wrong. What I've noticed (and we seem to disagree on) is that at least sometimes (though perhaps limited to the gender case as I talk about above) someone using a social smear tactic will make an appeal to the wider issue (e.g. "x is a horrible sexist, and we all know how bad those boys clubs are") to solicit agreement and rapport, thus strengthening their attack. What I get concerned with is that the implicit acceptance of this wider issue claim tends to paint the majority as collectively guilty of issues which should be identified on an individual basis, which leads to more of the "us vs them" mentality that we're trying to eliminate.

[acomar]

> Right, which makes it all the more important to ensure that when racism/sexism claims are made, they are made legitimately and not casually, lest they be used as examples to dismiss, or ignore, genuine issues.

Too frequently this line of argumentation is inflated and used to attack even legitimate claims of sexism/racism -- they can be used inappropriately turns into they are being used inappropriately halfway through the argument, and the entire point slides unchallenged.

> someone using a social smear tactic will make an appeal to the wider issue (e.g. "x is a horrible sexist, and we all know how bad those boys clubs are") to solicit agreement and rapport, thus strengthening their attack.

Exactly. Consider that this is easier and more powerful in the reverse direction from a majority/empowered group to a minority/under-powered group.

[hatcravat]

Do you feel that in this case the charges of sexism are legitimate?

[synth]

> What I get concerned with is that the implicit acceptance of this wider issue claim tends to paint the majority as collectively guilty of issues which should be identified on an individual basis, which leads to more of the "us vs them" mentality that we're trying to eliminate.

The "boy's club" mentality that a lot of people glean from the "tech zeitgeist", for lack of a better term, is not entirely unfounded. I think a lot of us have a few anecdotes, where women in tech are called "irrational" or otherwise excluded solely for their gender, but we all know that anecdotes prove nothing, and since social issues don't lend themselves very well to scientific examination (too many variables), I present another angle.

Entertain the following notion: The reason it's more socially acceptable (depending on where you live) to rag on men in society, as opposed to women, is exactly because the relevant(in this case, tech) power structure is mostly male dominated. On its face, it's a terrible argument, but I submit to you that this is how all people subconsciously feel about the concept of discrimination.

And further, since people look different, inherently, the mass of people will inevitably make it an us/them issue. Always. This is one of the many ugly aspects of human nature, that I would love to see eradicated, but I'm afraid that, for now, it's a techno-utopic fantasy.

And of course, it's not fair at all, that because you or I share more "traits" with the leaders of society, that we are made to feel guilty for something we have no power to alter. I don't believe that's a good thing. But remember, the motif of the underdog overcoming all obstacles (an "us vs. them") has been around since the dawn of man, and people are naturally attracted to the "us vs. them" idea, even if it's a gross over-simplification of the truth. So everyone will naturally and subconsciously blame anyone who shares the traits of "them". That's why people, as you say "[tend] to paint the majority as collectively guilty of issues which should be identified on an individual basis, which leads to more of the "us vs them" mentality that we're trying to eliminate."

Instead of looking at these issues as cases of reverse sexism: "oh you believe that just because she's a woman, she can't make it in the tech world and needs protection/help", I look at it as acknowledging that all people have certain cognitive biases and that the majority of people will act on them subtly, all of which add up.

Anyone with a note of clarity and dignity in their heads knows that all people are of the same seed, and that, ignoring serious brain/developmental damage, all people are able to do much the same work, albeit at varying speed/efficiency.

But I also know, that subconsciously, I will tend to look down on "black people" as a whole if I see a black person to something wrong, as opposed to someone who looks like me, in which case I will look down on the individual. The sad truth is that all people will unconsciously and subtly ignore reason to all sorts of cognitive biases without realizing it. Everyone, you and me included. And to add further insult to injury, we will call that "rational" or "reason".

For example, people will tout IQ scores to show that blacks are inferior to whites, as if intelligence is determined by someone's ability to solve a few geometry puzzles, and that this further can be reduced to a single positive integer. This is what passes for rationality in some circles. Just a reminder.

[These articles highlight my point better, for those who are interested.]

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2012/04/17/ego-depletion/ http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/06/23/confirmation-bias/ http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/06/07/the-just-world-fallac...

My point is that we are not the rational actors we would like ourselves to be. We need to acknowledge that base, petty, irrational human nature still rules much of society, and we need to accept that we are all (everyone, to differing extents) parts of larger social mechanisms that subtly, but systematically, exclude anyone who looks or acts different.

Another example; discriminatory laws (like Hate Crimes) seem to, at face value, unjustly make the law about skin color. But viewed from a larger historical, cultural and social perspective, they're an attempt to give minorities more of a legal foot to stand on in a society where blacks are sentenced harder than whites for the exact same crimes. The guilt we are made to feel is the price we all pay (yes, even minorities who happen to also be part of a single dominant social group are made to feel guilty).

> the "us vs them" mentality that we're trying to eliminate.

I too want to live in a world where everyone is judged not according to their superficial traits, but according to their skills. A world of can's and can-not's, not have and have-not's. A world where rational scientific inquiry is separated neatly from politics (I assume you agree). But I further realize that we are an innately irrational and fearful species, who will seize on anything, statistics, science, even rationality, to justify our prejudices and worldviews.

That's why I believe positive discrimination is (fundamentally) good for our age. Yes, these measures are imperfect, inelegant, ugly ad-hoc solutions that create double-standards in society, but instead of pretending that simple, elegant solutions to complex problems are good, we have to face reality; sometimes, complex social problems need ugly, unjust solutions, until the time where a better solution is made real, because the alternative is to let human irrationality go unchecked and unaccountable.

Just to sum up all my rambling; we must accept that the problem is human nature, and that the "us vs. them" exists because of human nature, and that the ugly double standards of positive discrimination exist to counter-balance the effects of that, at the unfortunate but small price of further legitimizing it. These measures exist to reminds us that one-sided discrimination exists to this day. That's why we need them and that's why I think the benefits greatly outweigh the harms in the long run.

Edit: Looking at the post now I realized I typed way too much text in one comment. I'm sorry about this.

[pleasebehonest]

So, what would you say to an underprivileged, unattractive, short, Caucasian male? Perhaps, "I'm sorry, but I'm going step on your rights and make you a casualty in the fight for the 'greater good', as defined by me. Please step aside and keep quiet." Or would you bother saying anything to him at all?

Maybe you aren't obsessed with driving wedges between various groups in society, causing them to become factions with increasing animosity towards one another, but you're doing it.

It's odd: No group hates underprivileged, unattractive whites males nearly as much as privileged, attractive white males. It's a cruel form of preening.

[synth]

Race, gender, class, etc. are inextricably tangled up together. I'm not sure why you (seem to) think being underprivileged and Caucasian somehow means you will be trampled on or have your rights taken away. (How exactly?)

These "wedges between various groups in society" have existed ever since we've had an amygdala. They are innate, in that sense. We ought to accept that people as individuals, and more so as groups, are too biased when it comes to things like race, gender, etc, and we should address these problems in honest terms, as opposed to presuming that everyone is a rational actor who will realize that Racism Is Bad After All if only we did/didn't do X.

> Maybe you aren't obsessed with driving wedges between various groups in society, causing them to become factions with increasing animosity towards one another, but you're doing it.

Most of the animosity you might be referring to, has existed since day 1, but is just getting more attention from the media. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away.

> It's odd: No group hates underprivileged, unattractive whites males nearly as much as privileged, attractive white males. It's a cruel form of preening.

It's easier to hate people that you can relate to. Nothing odd about that. It's why you often see nerds making fun of other nerds with a ferocity greater than a non-nerd would ever muster.