[luhsprwhk]

It wasn’t America's principles that made it the world leader at the time—it was the fact that, unlike other major powers, it emerged from the world wars largely unscathed. Both peace settlements following the wars were widely criticized as unstable and unlikely to last, and they didn't.

[starchild3001]

I'd think peace after WWII lasted for 77 years (between 1945-2022 until the ukraine war broke out which appears to be the beginning of a new hot war).

[luhsprwhk]

I'd say war became hot again way back when with Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Korea. Proxy wars but wars nonetheless. A major war? Perhaps 2022 was the start of it like you said, that tracks. Hopefully not though.

[mmooss]

One difference is that Ukraine is an international, cross-border war of conquest - the kind that was outlawed after WWII and hardly happened since. Vietnam and Korea were civil wars where the US sought no territory. Afghanistan had a different motive, but no conquest was desired.

[OccamsMirror]

I guess it depends how Europe responds to Greenland being invaded.

[oblio]

Europe will respond in 2 ways:

1. Short term: nothing major because it can't at the moment.

2. Long term: build up a military that is a credible military deterrent to the US, probably abandon NATO if the US doesn't, and form alliances with Canada and the UK.

[mmooss]

> Both peace settlements following the wars were widely criticized as unstable and unlikely to last, and they didn't.

Do you mean that "the" post-WWII peace settlement didn't last? It seems to have worked very well.

> It wasn’t America's principles that made it the world leader at the time—it was the fact that, unlike other major powers, it emerged from the world wars largely unscathed.

That certainly played a big role. Also, American principles that created a post-war order based on univeral human rights, the rule of law, and free-market capitalism (including free trade). Those principles led to treatment of the losing powers in that image, rather than in retribution, cruelty or oppression (compare to the USSR in Eastern Europe). In fact, Japan surrendered when they did mainly in order to surrender to the US and not to the USSR - those principles had very significant effects. They also led to the Marshall Plan in Europe.

The principles and the resulting actions created 'soft power' which may be unmatched in history. The general alliance with European powers has lasted over 80 years; the NATO military alliance, of mutual self-defense, has lasted almost as long - has there been anything like it?

People around the world fought and struggled for the vision of American freedom. I've spoken to people from different countries who, even in the first Trump administration, still had the American dream; they still saw the 'city on the hill'.

Beyond a doubt, the US also has done plenty of awful things. But what has distingiushed it, beyond every great power in history, are those principles.

[luhsprwhk]

No, war by proxies is not peace.

[mmooss]

Agreed, but there is far less war of any sort, and - almost miraculously - the near-total elimination of international war. It's a staggering accomplishment.

To say that some war remains is to make perfection the only standard. Let's reduce it even more, but to claim the post-war order hasn't overseen extraordinary peace, freedom and prosperity is ridiculous.