[zozbot234]

"Capitalism" is a very confusing word that should be avoided in a serious discussion one way or the other, society is a lot more complex than that. For instance "crony capitalism" is also seemingly capitalism but is directly opposed to the broad principles of a market economy that people think of as good.

[panick21_]

"Crony Capitalism" is just a term socialists came up with to shit on capitalism. The reality is every society is going to have some amount of corruption and cronyism. But "Crony Capitalism" isn't an actual coherent concepts, it doesn't have 'principles', its just highlighting something negative that happens in countries, including capitalist ones.

Socialists love to add some negative word 'X' to capitalism to highlight that all bad things in the world are connected to capitalism, and if they could finally defeat capitalism, then the world would be perfect. Instead of actually trying to fix 'X' they will tell you that what we really need to change is 'capitalism'. Surveillance Capitalism, Crony Capitalism, Disaster Capitalism and so on.

Trying to fix corruption, to hard, lets just destroy property rights and money instead. Great idea!

[psd1]

Can you smell straw?

Let me give you a tool for your mental toolkit. When you find yourself saying this:

> <some group> loves to

...it's a smell. What follows may be perfectly reasonable, but in my experience it's more commonly unexamined twaddle.

If you happen to be American, see where you get with these:

- many Americans fetishise America - J Edgar Hoover spent 20 years programming Americans to consider socialism to be "un-American"

In this case, I think a little reflection would reveal a J Edgar Hoover homonculus in your head, pulling your levers.

I'm all for emotional arguments. Ultimately, we all have core values, and I like to lead an argument by stating mine.

But hating socialism isn't a core value, it's _at best_ a reaction. Which is to say, if you're from, ooh, Bulgaria or Cuba, then I can indulge you. You may not be logical but you do have cause.

If you merely have a little J Edgar Hoover homonculus in your head, pulling your levers, then refrain from posting, because a J Edgar Hoover homonculus is not an interesting conversationalist.

[panick21_]

> ...it's a smell.

Just like anything else that can't be back up with solid empirical research in a discussion forum. With is 99% of what we are dissing. (And most books written by intellectuals of both the socialist and capitalist variety).

Communism is originally a utopian social movement, and there is a strong tendency and a very well document intellectual history of communism that asserts that pretty much most problems at its root are an issue with capitalism and that they can only be solved in the absence of capitalism. So much so that it was pretty normal for communist to oppose working with social democrats on any reform of existing systems.

> Americans to consider socialism to be "un-American"

I'm not american and I couldn't care less if something is 'American' or not. And I have no idea what 'americanness' has to do with our discussion. So far as I can tell, nothing what so ever. And I don't hate 'socialism' either.

> But hating socialism isn't a core value, it's _at best_ a reaction. Which is to say, if you're from, ooh, Bulgaria or Cuba, then I can indulge you. You may not be logical but you do have cause.

So unless you are the victim of rape, being against rapist isn't a 'core value'? That's a outright crazy line of argument.

P.S: I really think you are waste overestimate the importance of Hoover.

[psd1]

I wish I could delete that comment. Time to log off.