[Cherian]

I was born in the second southernmost district of Kerala, Quilon (now Kollam). I am now a U.S. citizen in the Bay Area. Growing up in Quilon, I attended an Anglo-Indian boy's school called Infant Jesus - in a small strip of land called Thangassery, people predominantly spoke English. I was taught British dialects emphasizing pronunciations that mimicked the world stage. I didn't really understand it until much later in life.

In my 20s, the contrast hit when I traveled across other parts of India.

Kerala has a mix of Western population that decided to stay back after the Indian Independence that brought with them Christianity, education, hospitals, and the Catholic culture. Kerala is also one of the few places in India where you can eat beef without inhibitions.

The writer hasn't emphasized this enough, but when oil struck the Middle East in the 1960s, the massive influx of blue and white-collar labor (who had the English language and engineering skills) that helped set up what's now Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Oman, and many other countries was built by Malayalees. My father-in-law was one of the earlier engineers at Aramco in Saudi. The Middle Eastern money has flown back to Kerala thanks to high bank interest rates (nearly 10%) and landlocked real estate that helped raise the state's GDP.

[anon291]

> Kerala has a mix of Western population that decided to stay back after the Indian Independence that brought with them Christianity, education, hospitals, and the Catholic culture. Kerala is also one of the few places in India where you can eat beef without inhibitions.

Christianity in Kerala is much older than European Christianity. Literally the land of the Apostles

[Cherian]

Agree. The Christians that came with the Apostles mainly were Syrians who were traders and kept to themselves for 13-14 centuries.

The British Christians were engaged in evangelism and, consequently, set up colleges, schools, hospitals, and other such institutions. They were also involved in conversions that led to the penetration of Christianity from a minor fraction (during the time from the early AD till 18th century) to double digits. This was obviously instrumental for English language inculcation.

[panick21_]

> Literally the land of the Apostles

That's literally just a nice story that people claim with very, very, very little to back it up. But I guess they literally claim that.

[anon291]

Meh. That's most stories attributed to the apostles. The story of st Thomas is ancient and even before colonization, the prevailing attitude in Europe was that st Thomas and st Bartholomew both proselytized India. You'll find references to this in many books and manuscripts.

In fact many European maps contained the belief that there was a Christian kingdom in Kerala. They even had saints from there whose stories made their way over and were recorded.

Thus Kerala is as holy to christians as Rome, Constantinople, Spain, Armenia, Ethiopia, etc.

This talking point is often used by Hindu nationalists who claim that India is not holy to christians and thus christians are foreigners. I'll point out that (1) Kerala is holy and (2) there is more evidence of st Thomas in Kerala than of Parasurama parting the seas to reveal Kerala.

[panick21_]

> That's most stories attributed to the apostles.

... all

> The story of st Thomas is ancient and even before colonization

So? All Christian communities made up a bunch of nonsense about themselves, often linking themselves to the early church.

> the prevailing attitude in Europe was that st Thomas and st Bartholomew both proselytized India.

Yes and if you actually look up why that is the 'prevailing attitude' you will find that it is at best based on some 3rd century stories that Thomas might have been in Partia. But even those claims are completely baseless of anything before it.

> You'll find references to this in many books and manuscripts.

No you can't. There is one reference in Origen about Thomas maybe having gone to Parthia but that is just as much a story likely based on all the fake gospels people were writting at that time. We know well that by Origen time there were tons and tons of made up stories about all the (supposed) apostles, including about Thomas.

And then Eusebius later claimed he went to India (and India doesn't even mean necessarily mean India as we understand it). And Eusebius is basically the 'myth maker extraordinaire' of the early Christianity, and his claims is basically what almost everything later is based on. Basically anything the Christian believe about their history comes from this 4th century 'source'. So basically anything Eusebius claims is basically accepted by later church tradition as 'the truth'.

Its quite typical of early christian source to grow the story and add increasingly more and more stuff to them. You can see this even in the bible, compare Paul letters to Paul in Acts. Basically just a random wandering preacher, getting transformed into a magical superhero. Pretty typical of all early Christian figures. You start out with few people doing not so amazing things (likely as there is little evidence they existed at all), and 300 years later, every one of those people is basically the hero of their own expanding story. Characters that are not mentioned anywhere, get inserted into a later versions of the text, and then all of a sudden more text show up mentioning them, and couple 100 years later three is a whole textual tradition about all the things that person supposedly did. Basically its the Marval Cinematic Universe. Thomas is basically Hawkeye.

A much more likely story is that Eusebius book (or other gospels about Thomas) arrived in India and then expand on by the locals.

> In fact many European maps contained the belief that there was a Christian kingdom in Kerala.

There are tons of claims about all kinds of Christian kingdoms in the East threw-out the middle ages.

By the time firm knowledge of Kerla existed it was, much much later and is completely irrelevant to the question of Thomas.

I am not denying Christianity came to India pretty early on. That said, I think the claim that it arrived in the first century are not based on much, neither textual nor archeological evidence has ever been found to my knowledge.

> (2) there is more evidence of st Thomas in Kerala than of Parasurama parting the seas to reveal Kerala.

Sure but that's not how history works.

I am not sticking my finger into whatever Indian ideological drama I seem have stepped into.

Clearly I don't agree with whatever nationalist faction you are talking about. I am just point out what we actually know historically.

[anon291]

There is really nothing written about Christianity until fairly late. At the time certain Christian writing originates in Europe, Christianity is well established in India. The various other stories attributed to the apostles are variously assumed to be partially true. For example, St Peters martyrdom at the Vatican hill, which was later found to be true.

There are two factions vying to de-link India from early Christianity, the white nationalists and the hindutvas. You've stepped into this mess because in a thread where I pointed out Christianity in India is native to India and as old or older than Europe you butted in to point out that may be the story of the apostles is not true

We can have a debate on the veracity of early Christian claims, but this is really not the place for it. The Syriac church has existed in Kerala for as long as Christianity and they do things their own way

> Christian kingdoms in the East threw-out the middle ages.

Indeed. The difference of course is that, the Syriacs have existed the entire time and are not a story

[vram22]

>Christianity in Kerala is much older than European Christianity.

Yes:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Christians

See the History section.

[gilfoyle]

Catholic churches are quite conservative in their own ways, primarily set up by Christian missionaries with the mandate to convert.

The english language helped, sure, but it's the lack of opportunities in their own state and the higher education levels that created the conditions for the immigration to Middle East. Kerala also had a long history of trade with Arabs.

Yes, there is restriction on beef consumption in India but nobody protests for pork while in the middle east - it's all about which side the bread is buttered.