[pfannkuchen]

One thing I think is interesting about the fascism label is - if you time traveled the US government leadership from 1945 to today, who would they align with more? How would they treat these issues? Or was the US fascist in 1923 when the Supreme Court ruled in United States v. Bhagat Singh Thind that Indians aren’t white and therefore can’t be granted citizenship? That seems, like, massively more “fascist” than anything happening today. But historically no one considers 1923 America to be fascist, and it went to war against fascists shortly thereafter. Hmm.

[dragonwriter]

> One thing I think is interesting about the fascism label is - if you time traveled the US government leadership from 1945 to today, who would they align with more?

I’m guessing not the people literally using the slogans of the American movement that opposed fighting fascism.

> Or was the US fascist in 1923 when the Supreme Court ruled in United States v. Bhagat Singh Thind that Indians aren’t white and therefore can’t be granted citizenship?

It was racist (which, alone, is not sufficient to be fascist, though fascist governments are often racists and the Nazis were specifically inspired by US race policy in their racism) when it adopted the naturalization law that the Supreme Court interpreted in that case, sure.

(The fixed country-based caps in current immigration law are also largely based in racism, but a much more mild expression of it than the whites-only naturalization rule.)

[jhp123]

A time traveller from 1945 would probably assume the side snapping off Sieg Heils to be fascist

[dragonwriter]

Probably also wouldn't be particular partial to those using the “America First!" slogan (because to them its use as a KKK slogan in the Second Klan Era would be very familiar, but even moreso because its subsequent use as a slogan of opposition to US fighting fascism overseas would be even more familiar.)

[FooBarBizBazz]

This word "fascism" is unfortunate, because the symbolism of the fasces is actually good: We do all need to bundle ourselves together if we are either (a) to accomplish anything, or (b) to resist capital. The only question is whether all the many twigs have to be the same color.

The Left has spoken of "bundling" for many years now (of issues or complaints, or, looked at another way, of identity or pressure groups). That too is the idea of the fasces. The word "bundle" again suggests it.

I also note that there is a certain irony here, because, besides "fasces", we already have a succinct two-syllable word meaning "a bundle of twigs".

There is also the tasty cognate, "fajita".

[aaplok]

> historically no one considers 1923 America to be fascist.

Many scholars consider that Nazism was greatly inspired by American racism. Calling 1923 America fascist would be anachronistic, but also American racist policies were less related to Italian fascism than to Nazi doctrines. But plenty of scholars make the connection. Here is an example: [0].

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-American-Model-United-States/...

[pfannkuchen]

If you do a poll of people who call current events fascist and ask them if America was fascist in 1923 or 1945, I’m quite confident that upwards of 95% of respondents would say no to both. Do you disagree?

I’m commenting on the apparent worldview contradiction or blind spot in people who are calling current events and people fascist.

[aaplok]

That would only show that people are ignorant of the past and influenced by what is called the national myth [0], not necessarily that their definition of fascism has changed.

To return your argument, if you poll people who call current events fascists and ask them if that 1923 Supreme court decision is fascist, would you be as confident that 95% would say it's not?

That people's view of fascism has changed after world war 2 is obvious and not particularity insightful. So has their view of antisemitism for instance.

I also should add that I agree with you on the great danger of labeling too many things fascists, including the current events. It is entirely possible to oppose Trump's second term and even think that it is a threat to democracy without resorting to calling it fascist. It is also possible to compare it with the rise of fascist regimes if one provides appropriate arguments.

I just don't think that your example with 1920s America illustrates that point particularly well.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_myth

[MengerSponge]

1923 Germany wasn't fascist either. 1933 Germany, for what it's worth, liked a lot of things about 1923 America. Nazi eugenics grew from American ideas.

[pfannkuchen]

1923 Germany not being fascist is irrelevant to my point.

My point is that during the time period where USA was considered fascist-fighting heroes according to the mainstream account, they themselves had many views that were considered normal back then but strongly “fascist” today. I guess the definition of fascist must have changed?

[MengerSponge]

Fascism and white supremacy aren't interchangeable terms. The formal definition has refined, although the colloquial usage hasn't kept up.

Check out this summary of Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism essay, with 14 characteristics of fascist movements/regimes.

https://www.openculture.com/2024/11/umberto-ecos-list-of-the...

Like many diagnostic criteria, it's not sufficient to only check one or two of the boxes. It's also worth being honest and examining the aspects of American culture that have made it particularly susceptible to fascism.

[aaplok]

Changed compared to when? Back in 1939 Nazism and Fascism were different doctrines, which were soon put in the same bag of "fascism" for the purpose of war propaganda from the allies. Bizarrely the equally insane Japanese racism wasn't called fascist.

Nowadays fascism has become synonymous with right extremists in popular culture, I guess because it's an easy way to discredit a political opponent.

I believe that scholars who study political science have a different and more consistent definition of fascism, though it too likely evolved to capture the essential characteristics of related ideologies.

A significant difference between Jim Crow's America and fascist regimes is the concentration of power into the hands of one man (or a small group). That means that separation of power (executive, judiciary, legislative) that existed through American history did not exist in Fascist Italy or Nazi Germany. Another one is nationalism. There are likely others.