[CuriouslyC]

I've been studying music for 10 years, I'm not some 12 year old who's only ever heard pop.

Classical music isn't special superior form of art, and people who try to paint it as such tend to be elitists who want to have something to hold over other people to make them feel superior. Kind of like how people latch on to wine to try and seem sophisticated (ironically, wine snobbery has its origin with kings and chieftains of conquered territories trying to fit in with their Roman oppressors, but at least they were cognizant of why they were doing it, unlike modern wine snobs). There's plenty of metal that's far more technical and complex than typical classical music, but you don't see metalheads going around telling people to listen to "real" music.

[zozbot234]

What's special about classical music is merely that it's a literate form of music. It has an underlying "text" (the score) that everyone agrees on, which represents a somewhat abstracted 'blueprint' of the overall work to be performed. A metal piece doesn't really have that: you can transcribe it after the fact to score notation or tablature, but the result is merely one listener's opinion of how that piece "goes". Jazz music has its "lead sheets" but these are intentionally simplified and/or otherwise changed wrt. the source material taken from the "Great American Songbook" rep (which is far closer to the classical tradition than any kind of modern "pop").

This means that classical music, more than other traditions, is a natural target for both broader academic study as well as automated generation by AI's trained on some sort of existing repertoire.

[zoogeny]

I didn't study classical, but I was watching some YouTube channel by someone with graduate degree in classical. He offhand mentioned that many of the "compositions" of guys like Chopin were actually improvisations that were later transcribed. I've heard similar tales of Bach, especially his ability to improvise complex fugues on the spot as a sort of party trick.

I just mean to say, I don't think there is a clear divide between a classical mentality for composition and a modern mentality. It is just we study classical hundreds of years after the fact and that academization of the music has lent a particular view to it. If we study metal in a hundred years the same way we study classical (or jazz) it may seem just as rigid.

[zozbot234]

You're right that improvisation was historically very relevant in classical music and that this tradition was mostly lost starting somewhere in the mid-to-late 19th century as the view on how pieces should be performed became a lot more rigid. It still survives in places, such as among organists, and there are many attempts to revive it. But the fact that it is a matter of academic scholarship and study is not that closely related: there are lots of period-contemporary treatises and 'method' books that discuss exactly how pieces should be improvised and/or performed, often in great detail and depth. You can't possibly have that unless people are very much familiar with the practice of writing their music down on paper. That's what 'literate' means basically, it really is as simple as that. It's also something that other music traditions tend to not focus on to anything near the same extent.

[zoogeny]

I don't see much difference in that compared to now. I mean, do a search on Jazz composition/improvisation and you are bound to find numerous descriptions of the Barry Harris approach (among others). There is a large existing cannon of methods for jazz improvisation that informs all students of the form. The same is true, just less formal in pop song writing. If you watch enough producer videos for pop and commercial (ads, tv, movies) you will find there is a set of methods for those genres.

As I explained in another response, I see the literate nature of classical music as related more to the transmission of knowledge from master to novice and much less in the process of composition. In the past, music was written down for study. Today music is recorded and studied directly. I have no doubt this has consequences on the student, but I don't think it has as much consequence on the process of composition itself.

[zozbot234]

I'm not sure how "a set of methods" talked about by producers of commercial music can possibly be conflated with a continued tradition of ongoing scholarship and study that dates back some 500 years or more. Obviously anyone who creates music has some idea in her mind of how she does this, but it makes a rather massive difference whether actual in-depth scholarship is involved or not. It's very hard to do real study and scholarship without writing music down at some point, and being able to listen to a recorded track is not really the same thing.

The Barry Harris approach to jazz BTW is very much informed by what we know about the way classical improvisation worked, so even though it's transmitted by video there is in fact a link to the scholarly tradition. (The style is of course different, so these aren't quite the same thing! But not that far either.)

[zoogeny]

Yes, and one of my points was: if metal becomes as important to musical history (over a similar time span) as classical romantic music or jazz it will get the same treatment.

I'm arguing that reasoning "classical music is important because it is written" is backwards. It is written and studied because people think it is important. The degree that the formalisms are applied is directly related to how important the elites in the academies think the music is. Please don't mistake that claim with me suggesting pop music or metal are in fact as important as classical or jazz. I'm just pointing out that nascent formalisms for those genres obviously exist.

But my main point is, just because classical music has been deemed important enough by the academy to write it down, study it and enforce its strict reproduction, that does not imply that it is easier for an AI to learn the genre or reproduce it effectively. I have no doubt that just like millions of humans, multi-modal AIs will be able to use the vast library of recorded music in all genres to easily reproduce those genres compositions perfectly well. There is no privilege to classical just because the historical context meant it was committed to paper rather than record.

[Slow_Hand]

I’m not sure how useful that framing is because improvisation is effectively composition in real time. By writing down an impromptu or something that was played on the spot it becomes composition when it’s crystallized in this way.

Chopin predates audio recording, so it’s not as if someone recorded his performance and then transcribed it like people do today with jazz solos. I’m assuming that Chopin was the one to transcribe and publish after he had a good idea because few would have the recall to do so accurately.

Sometimes compositions are generated spontaneously by the composer (one pass) and sometimes they require extensive labor and refinement.

It’s not to say that classical music doesn’t also include improvisation, and I agree that there’s not a clear divide between classical mentality and modern sensibilties. Although today, the composition (if not scored) ends up taking it’s final form as an audio recording. More and more the composition exists untranscribed in the DAW session.

[zoogeny]

What I'm getting at is that the literate quality of the music as a defining principle (or differentiator) is lessened if the actual practice was improvisation that preceded it being written down. If a composer improvised the music first and wrote it down second, then it is hard to claim that his writing it down was a significant differentiator in it's composition. This is compared to modern music that is improvised, developed than recorded (and often not written down).

The argument against my point would be, but the people learning the music (i.e. studying it) later started with the written music and went from there. And that is a differentiator for their own development as composers. That would be compared to modern musicians studying modern pop music where they start with a recording and go from there.

My point is that the differentiation is in the contemporary study of music and less in the method of composition.

[williamdclt]

Completely agree with you, except

> you don't see metalheads going around telling people to listen to "real" music.

Have you _met_ a metalhead? :) saying that as one myself (less now, used to play in bands and stuff), this is one of the snobbiest group music-wise!

[MisterTea]

> Have you _met_ a metalhead? :) saying that as one myself (less now, used to play in bands and stuff), this is one of the snobbiest group music-wise!

Like when we were 15, yeah sure, everything sucked, Opeth rules, Mayhem is tru Black Metal! etc. Though later on only my really immature friends kept those opinions. But I think this goes for any niche subculture that people use to define themselves. I too am an old metalhead, still practicing! Dress like a 15 year old, crank the volume and bang your fucking head!!! \m/(>.<)\m/ ;-)

[CuriouslyC]

I see metalheads casting shade on subgenres of metal they're not into and overhyped bands moreso than entire other genres of music. I remember a lot of conversations about how Cradle of Filth was poseur black metal for high school kids back in the day, for example.

[suddenlybananas]

People can absolutely be snobs in other genres, it's a super common thing