[rvense]

The interesting question is whether the West is succesful because of or inspite of our Christian base. There's no denying the place of Christianity in European history, but that doesn't mean that the good things about our societies are due to Christianity. Christianity has changed a lot since Roman times, and its place and expression in various societies have been affected by other ideological currents and reinterpretations.

I'm Danish, which while nominally Christian has been a fairly irreligious country for a few generations now, and it certainly seems to me that the less influence and visibility Christianity has had, the better off we've been. Most of the things that make this country a good place to live come from socialism/social democracy and feminism, whereas many strands of Christianity has mostly been a reactionary force (with some exceptions).

[exe34]

Christians and Christian apologists like to pretend that Christianity led to social progress, when at every turn, the church had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world, and only then claimed the progress as their own.

[mightyham]

You certainly don't have to be a Christian apologist to acknowledge the unique contributions Christianity has made to the development of the west.

[exe34]

English is not my native language - could you help me understand where I gave the impression that Christianity made no contributions to the development of the west?

[judahmeek]

What contributions to the development of the west are you attributing specifically to Christianity?

[spiderfarmer]

Do you also acknowledge the bad side?

[throw0101c]

> There's no denying the place of Christianity in European history, but that doesn't mean that the good things about our societies are due to Christianity.

Well, the elimination of slavery, and development of human rights (every human is a 'child of God', whether king or peasant). Which is tied in with the concept of individualism:

* https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/27/inventing-indi...

The modern idea of science needed certain metaphysical assumptions that weren't really present in many other religions (and to the extent they were present in philosophy, aspects of said philosophy(s) were often mainstreamed by Christianity (e.g., Aristotle)):

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)#Provid...

* https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:God_the_Geometer.jpg

And where "science" (or what passed for it at the time) existed elsewhere, it often withered or was snuffed out; the invention of the telescope was transformational in Europe, but not so much in Muslim lands, Mughal India, or Imperial China:

* https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/intellectual-curiosity-...

Various legal forms were promulgated by the Church (including that the authorities themselves were not (notionally) above the law: not something you'll find with (e.g.) the Chinese Emperor), as were universities:

* https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/M/bo562094...

And if they were not due to Christianity, I'd say [citation needed] on how they developed otherwise. And more than developed, but became 'mainstream' thinking in many parts of the globe (though certainly not universally, as Chinese Uyghurs are experiencing).

[ndsipa_pomu]

> the elimination of slavery, and development of human rights (every human is a 'child of God', whether king or peasant)

I can understand that slavery goes against the 'child of God' philosophy, but there seems to be very little (none?) explicit condemnation of slavery in the bible and certainly there's been organised Christian religions for centuries before slavery was abolished.

To my mind, Christianity seems incidental to the abolition of slavery as it's only been relatively recently (18th century) that Christians condemned slavery rather than just wanting slaves to be treated well (and that they had to obey their masters).

[throw0101c]

> I can understand that slavery goes against the 'child of God' philosophy, but there seems to be very little (none?) explicit condemnation of slavery in the bible and certainly there's been organised Christian religions for centuries before slavery was abolished.

Galatian 3 would be the key statement:

> 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. 27 As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring,[k] heirs according to the promise.

* https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%203&v...

Slavery was often view as a 'natural evil' like famine or pestilence, of which we just had to live with, but it was never viewed as good; Basil of Caesarea (330-379 AD) for one took this view. His (biological) brother Gregory of Nyssa took the view that slavery was inherently sinful:

> If [man] is in the likeness of God, ... who is his buyer, tell me? Who is his seller? To God alone belongs this power; or rather, not even to God himself. [...] God would not therefore reduce the human race to slavery, since [God] himself, when we had been enslaved to sin, spontaneously recalled us to freedom. But if God does not enslave what is free, who is he that sets his own power above God's?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_of_Nyssa#Slavery

So right from very early times there was a strong anti-slavery leaning and desire in Christianity. The above referenced book Inventing the Individual goes through the history of constantly increasing individual freedom starting in the late-Roman period:

> His thesis is simple: the origin of secular liberalism, - conceived of as the intellectual current and attitude that puts the individual at the centre, as a unique acting object and as fundamentally equal to other individuals -, its origins don’t lie in the Renaissance or the Enlightenment, but much earlier, in medieval Christianity. "Secularism is Christianity's greatest gift to the world", he states. Christianity, through Paul and Augustine, put the freedom and equality of the acting man first, in contrast to ancient Antiquity, where inequality determined the character of society and each individual found its place in a certain, natural hierarchy. It took centuries for Christian intellectuals to focus on freedom and equality in their thinking and to make it a natural starting point for people and society. The major breakthrough took place between the 12th and 14th century, in the high Middle Ages. That is the central thesis of this book.

* https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674979888

* https://literaryreview.co.uk/jesus-will-set-you-free

* https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jan/27/inventing-indi...

[ndsipa_pomu]

I'm not convinced that the Galatian 3 quote shows a strong anti-slavery sentiment - I interpret it as equating slave/free with male/female i.e. a natural state that people are in (similarly, the Jew/Greek dichotomy).

Gregory of Nyssa shows a strong anti-slavery view which is commendable, but I feel that he was ignored by a lot of Christians (it's the first time that I've heard of his name, but then I'm an atheist).

[rvense]

But if these things are because of Christianity, and it is often implied that western modernity is present in it from its beginning, almost an unavoidable consequent of it... then why are they not universal in Christendom? Why can I point to just as many Christian movements who are anti-science, pro-slavery, anti-individual?

[throw0101c]

> Why can I point to just as many Christian movements who are anti-science, pro-slavery, anti-individual?

Because people have free will,† and can choose to accept or ignore orthodox teaching.

This is especially true after Protestantism came about which caused a splintering into (tens of?) thousands of denominations,[1] rejecting even some tenets that were present since the beginning of Christianity (e.g., the Real Presence).

Whereas if you look at Catholicism (and Orthodox churches), they generally have consistent teachings going back to their beginning.

† Which of course some Christian denominations (and some modern materialists like Sapolsky) deny.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denomination...

[rvense]

I just don't see how it holds water at all to say that Christianity was what caused the abolition of slavery, when just as many Christians were in favour of it.