[jakelazaroff]

> Meanwhile disproportionately taxing people from outside of the jurisdiction is another disadvantage of congestion pricing, because it's taxation without representation and thereby creates a perverse incentive for the local government to use an inefficient system specifically because it taxes people without a voice in the relevant government.

Is it also “taxation without representation” when NJ Transit charges me a fare to go to New Jersey or to drive on the Turnpike? Infrastructure costs money and the people who use it should help pay for its upkeep and externalities.

[AnthonyMouse]

> Is it also “taxation without representation” when NJ Transit charges me a fare to go to New Jersey or to drive on the Turnpike?

Is it a tax, i.e. a fee charged by a government? Yes.

Do you have a vote in that government, as a non-resident of New Jersey? No.

It's taxation. Without representation.

This why roads used in interstate travel are one of the few specifically enumerated powers of the federal government (the constitution calls them "post roads"), and funding them from general federal revenue rather than tolls is completely appropriate.

> Infrastructure costs money and the people who use it should help pay for its upkeep and externalities.

Infrastructure is dominated by fixed costs. Amortizing fixed costs per-use is economically inefficient because it deters productive uses whose value exceeds the (negligible) incremental cost but not the (sunk) amortized fixed cost.

This operates to the extreme in the case of mass transit because the incremental cost of mass transit use is negative, since its use remove congestion from the roads. Paying people to use it would be an obvious perverse incentive, but paying for a collections infrastructure in order to deter people from using it instead of just making it free is an obvious own-goal.

[evanelias]

> Is it a tax, i.e. a fee charged by a government? Yes.

That isn't the commonly-held definition of a tax. The key thing about taxes is that they are compulsory. Transit fares are purely usage-based, and therefore optional, as you aren't forced to use transit. Fares are not commonly considered to be "taxes" in anything I've ever read.

[AnthonyMouse]

They're taxes. Notice how your definition would also exclude all other taxes. Property taxes aren't taxes, just don't own property. Sales taxes aren't taxes, just don't buy anything subject to them.

[evanelias]

> your definition

I'm literally repeating what it says in the Oxford English Dictionary. What are you citing that equates transit fares with taxes?

[AnthonyMouse]

The issue is with your own interpretation of "compulsory". It means compulsory for anyone engaged in the activity being taxed. It's a tax on transit use rather than a tax on purchases or property ownership or what have you. Which is kind of a dumb thing to tax, but that's still what it is.

[evanelias]

So by your definition, prior to the subway unification in 1940, paying the fare on the city-owned IND lines would be a tax, whereas paying the fare on the IRT and BMT was not?

Airfare isn't a tax, but Amtrak tickets are?

If I ride public transit in a foreign country, I'm paying a tax and the IRS will let me use the Foreign Tax Credit?

If I mail a package using USPS, that's a tax, but if I send a package using FedEx or UPS it's not?

No one I've ever met defines taxes that way. Nothing I've ever read defines taxes that way. If you want to convincingly define public transit fare as a tax, cite some reliable sources for this, because I literally can't find anything anywhere that supports this notion.

[stouset]

> Is it a tax

No, it is a usage fee just like stamps.