[lynx97]

I probably dont get your sarcasm. But I never had a problem with Lightning. In the long run, I like the switch to USB-C... But when I got my first iPhone, USB-C wasn't invented yet, so... Also, I like the AppStore for its reviews, and would actually NEVER activate an alternative appstore. No need to weaken my security on purpose. I know, its apparently an unpopular opinion here, but that is mostly because many people only comment with their dev hats on and are apparently unable to see things from user perspectives...

[rahkiin]

To add: when apple switched to lightning they made a deal with hardware makers that they would support this for 10 years in order not to make all their hardware obsolete again. They did eventually change it after exactly 10 years.

[bigyabai]

Not because their software would inherently break by switching to a different USB connector, or even by using a converter dongle. Apple signed this agreement because Lightning had a hardcoded DRM protocol baked into it to force third-parties to pay licensing fees. Of course they demanded a 10 year support window, it was a licensing ruse to make manufacturers pay a price premium to use the USB featureset.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MFi_Program

[rahkiin]

Not everything has to be a ‘i win, you lose’. It can be a strategy and architecture where multiple parties get something out of it. In different ways.

[seec]

The 3rd parties are not getting anything out of it. You literally pay for access to a tech stack that has nothing better than you would be able to do with USB. I mean the other side of connection was USB so it was a necessity anyway. If at least they upgraded the speed over the years, but nope stuck at USB 2.

For a hardware project I looked briefly at the MFi terms and they just don't make any sense. This is why any good lightning cable was always more expensive (at least before you get some from China with contraband auth chips)

Lightning is a major cash crab from Apple and revealed their actual playbook. Microsoft passed as a very bad players in the 90's but Apple is even worse. The only people not accepting that are deranged fans.

[vr46]

USB-C is a car crash of an implementation landscape, just because the interface is a single design, doesn't mean that you can rely on it. It is better than it was, but we've had several instances of issues with the USB-C, including my own personal favourite of my Nintendo Switch charging socket burning out because I used a non-Nintendo charger - an Apple one, completely compliant and as good as they get - to charge the Switch. A £50 repair.

Some USB-C cables aren't data compliant. They just send power. There's all kinds of foibles with USB-C that have taken years to work on and this just isn't clear to tech folks, let alone non-tech consumers.

The Lightning port has never done this to me, the device just charges and that's it. It transfers files and that's it.

[seec]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think USB C is perfect nor that it would have been my choice. In fact, from a mechanical standpoint, I prefer Lightning.

What I'm saying is that Apple didn't have to take a cut from every item sold by 3rd parties who wanted to use their specs. They could even have sold the spec at a fair price but instead they went on a full rent-seeking strategy.

This is why, when there is chatter about Qualcomm/Apple feud on licensing, I laugh my ass off because this is exactly the same behavior they impose on their partners. Can dish it out but can't take it. My complaint is mostly about the hypocrisy of Apple's behavior.

But the real motivator was making as much money as possible, the fact that their specifications had some desirable qualities is nice but not very relevant (since you don't get a choice if you wanted to make an iThing accessory anyway). Their previous port (30-pin) had the same problem and it was rather terrible. I had the first iPod with FW400 and they could have very well gone with mini-USB when they switched to their 30-pin to make it compatible with most PC who mostly had USB 2 and rarely FireWire. I used mini-USB for plenty of things from external hard-drive to digital cameras passing by digital mini-disc players and it was a fine port.

Yet they chose to make their completely proprietary 30-pin port, to rent-seek as much as possible on the accessory market. When they switched to Lightning, the goal was exactly the same, trying to pretend it's because it was better is disingenuous and very ignorant of Apple's history and behavior.

Plenty of corporations do things like that but the difference is that with Apple there is an army of zealots eating the bullcrap and justifying their behavior in a fanatical way.

[IncreasePosts]

You could turn lightning connectors upside down and plug them in before you could do that with USB

[MiscIdeaMaker99]

> The 3rd parties are not getting anything out of it.

Except all the profits from selling all those cables, connectors, and converters.

[seec]

They would have the same profit (in fact more) if they didn't have to pay a percentage of their sales to Apple.

The 3rd party manufacturers didn't make profit because of Apple but because of their customers choosing their products.

The way you try to reverse the situation and try to pretend Apple is entitled to a percentage of revenue from other companies making things to work with their products is pure insanity.

Do you think the brand of your car should get a cut of every compatible thing you buy to use with it? Should they get a cut on brake pad, tires, cables to their entertainment system, carpet of the right size for the particular car, etc. The list can be almost infinite.

Do you realize how absurd what you are trying to defend is?

[golergka]

> You literally pay for access to a tech stack that has nothing better than you would be able to do with USB.

Tech stack has the customers. You pay for access to customers.

[Dylan16807]

This is a relative comparison versus USB. If it was USB, it would have the same customers behind it (plus more).

[seec]

Best interpretation of that is rent-seeking. Not strictly illegal, but prone to regulation at the very least. Another way to put it is racketeering. I guess that Apple has been toying with the line for so long that people don't even understand where their interests lies...

[bigyabai]

Sure, FireWire is an example of Apple using innovation to actually innovate. Lightning is an example of Apple using DRM to paywall an ordinary and freely availible USB 2.0 featureset.

[majormajor]

Firewire was a speed/feature innovation. Lighting was a port innovation. Pay to play in either case.

Other options available to Apple instead of Lightning:

* stick with the iPod connector for longer

* switch to micro-USB

* never invent the iPod connector in favor of staying with Firewire or going to mini-USB and then switch to micro-USB or something else later anyway

None of these are better. I'm EXTREMELY glad they didn't switch to micro-USB. I had no shortage of mini-USB and then micro-USB devices and the micro-USB ports/cables are pretty much the worst I've ever dealt with.

[josephg]

Yeah. Also as I understand it, Apple is part of the USB committee and they were actively involved in the development of USB-C. Their experience developing the lightning connector actively led to usb-c being reversible.

If not for the lightning connector, we wouldn't have usb-c as we know it today.

Its also a stretch to claim apple doesn't like usb-c given how hard they've been pushing it on their laptops. In 2016, they started shipping laptops that only had usb-c ports - which worked around the chicken-and-egg problem we would have had otherwise. Dongle-gate was a real thing that annoyed a lot of people. But my desk is covered in usb-c peripherals - and that might not have happened if not for apple's "brave" choice.

[FateOfNations]

People have really bad memories of Mini- and Micro-USB, or aren't old enough to have experienced that era. Those things were fragile. At that point in time, it made all the technical and business sense in the world to replace their existing proprietary connector with a new, improved proprietary connector. The MFi program was a thing before Lightning, it's still a thing today, and has nothing to do with the specific connector.

[SllX]

The open alternative to 30-pin when Lightning was introduced was micro-USB and micro-USB is ass, but not switching away from 30-pin wasn’t an option for the phone they wanted to build at the time, that being the iPhone 5.

All in all, Lightning was a net benefit that overstayed its welcome by a few years. Even once USB-C was introduced a few years later, it took a few more years than that to become as pervasive as it did.

[musicale]

Overstaying its welcome was intentional to avoid burning peripheral developers who had been promised 10 years of compatibility after Lightning replaced the 30-pin dock connector, which was used from 2003-2012.

As noted in other comments, Apple was part of the USB working group, contributed to USB-C, and introduced USB-C/Thunderbolt-only laptops in 2016. There was backlash against this so they have since backtracked and reintroduced MagSafe and HDMI ports. Personally I would have preferred more USB-C/Thunderbolt ports.

[op00to]

I never paid more for a lightning cable than I did for any other usb cable. Why would I care?

[seanp2k2]

I haven't paid for all that many lightning cables period, since they tended to be included with most devices that needed them, and aside from some strain reliefs that I've added myself in the form of heat shrink, they've been largely reliable too.

[bboygravity]

You can't run an ad-blocker and you browse the web with JS turned on in Safari, but your Iphone is secure?

yeah ok

[biot]

You can run ad blockers in mobile Safari. This one works great: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/firefox-focus-privacy-browser/... -- it's both a browser itself as well as acting as a content blocker for Safari and does a fantastic job at blocking ads.

[bboygravity]

I'm talking system-wide add blocker which also blocks in-app ads.

[girvo]

You absolutely can run an ad-blocker.

[bboygravity]

You can block ads in iPhone apps?

[girvo]

That wasn't what was asked, but yes you can (through the various VPN-based ad-blocking apps)

[lynx97]

I don't need an ad-blocker. I have YouTube Premium. And I really don't need Safari that often, actually. Besides, if we're really talking JS==insecure, 99% of users on desktop and mobile are insecure. I am sort of on your side, because I spend most of my web-time in Lynx in a tmux. But if I were to argue against JS, people would call me a weirdo. That war is over. I fought it until 2010.

[Brian_K_White]

I have youtube premium and still need an ad blocker. What a stupid remark.

[maest]

> I don't need an ad-blocker. I have YouTube Premium.

This cannot be your actual stance.

You know there is a lot more to the Internet than that one website, right?

[lynx97]

I already said I dont use Safari that much. If you hadn't shortened the quote your reply would be moot. Maybe I need to rephrase, to make you happy: I don't use the web so much on my iPhone. The primary ad-offender in my world is YouTube, which I fixed by paying for Premium.

[chipsrafferty]

You know there aren't really ads on websites anymore, right?

There are ads in algorithm apps like YouTube, tiktok, Instagram, mobile games, streaming service "poor" subscriptions, etc. And there are paywalls. But the vast majority of interesting websites don't have ads anymore.

[HeatrayEnjoyer]

Surely you jest.

[worthless-trash]

Ever feel like you're talking to some gaslighting AI ? The Grandparent comment seems like it is one of those moments.

[hu3]

> And I really don't need Safari that often, actually.

Yeah you're an exception.

Thankfully people like you don't get to decide what EU rules as best for people.

[seanp2k2]

Yup, Apple made Lightning because USB-C wasn't a thing yet and MicroUSB is awful. Lightning is a whole lot better than MicroUSB, and they've been using it since 2012. MiniUSB B was pretty OK, Micro was just way too thin to be stable and would snap off frequently, in addition to being not very secure and hard to orient. Mini was thicker though, so while it worked fine for the HTC Apache and other Windows Mobile phones of the era, it wasn't going to be small enough to work on an iPhone.

So many people complaining about a really robust connector that solved real problems and has proven to be pretty reliable for 13 years. I'm no huge Apple fanboi, and I'm happy to have all their stuff use USB-C now, but the hate for Lightning is way inflated IMO.

[hayleox]

I have no issue with Apple inventing a new, superior connector; I applaud them for it. My issue is with them making it a closed proprietary standard with authentication chips to lock out unapproved third-party vendors. They could have just invented Lightning and made it an open standard. We might not have even needed USB-C then; the industry could have just iterated upon Lightning.

[musicale]

As I understand it, the USB standard is licensed, and you have to pay for it to use the USB logo and to get a vendor ID if you are not already a paying member of the USB Association. Licensing requires passing a compliance test, which is a very good idea.

Apple was also part of the working group that developed USB-C.

[thaumasiotes]

USB-C pushed whatever it was doing too far; it's now necessary to know what kind of USB-C cable you have. There's one kind for data transfer and a different kind for rapid power draw. And they look exactly the same.

[norman784]

That has nothing to do with USB-C, but with the USB 3+ standard, AFAIK Apple uses Thunderbolt protocol that is compatible with USB but it has less optional features than USB protocol.

[bigstrat2003]

MicroUSB is fine, and Apple should've just used that (like every other phone manufacturer did, with great success). But Apple also has the world's biggest NIH complex, so they decided to invent a proprietary standard rather than go with something interoperable.

[TylerE]

MicroUSB was absolutely not fine. The connectors were difficult to insert and very vulnerable to damage.

[mkehrt]

MicroUSB is a terrible connector. Every time I have to use one, it's impossible to get into the slot; it's finicky, breakable and has a one way orientation. Lightning is delightful to use.

[inkyoto]

Micro-USB connector has been consistently rated as one of the worst connectors ever invented[0], [2]. You can find more on the search engine of your choice.

Also relevant: 19 engineers from Apple worked on the USB-C connector and cable specification[1].

«None of the chargers fit snuggly into socket. The connectors are flimsy and get damaged easily. Just rolling up the charger and putting it in my pocket can cause the tip to break off»[0]

«While on the whole, I am satisfied with the switch to USB Micro, my only major gripe is the less obvious keying. Inserting the plug with good lighting is no problem (if you can see), but trying to plug in your cell phone after you've crawled into bed with the lights off can be a trial. As somebody who works with people with disabilities and medical conditions, I have heard from clients with compromised motor control, those with low vision, and those with distal neuropathies that they do experience a harder time plugging in their devices nowadays»[0]

[0] https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/18552/why-wa...

[1] https://www.docdroid.net/uf3z/typec-pdf

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7649405

[The_Blade]

don't let facts and data get in the way of rabble rabble rabble rabble

if the worst thing is someone else's code then someone else's hardware

[Jensson]

Why didn't they they work with the other actors to create a common standard 13 years ago? You know why, because they don't care about their users! And they even tried to stop the move to a standard many years later when the lightning connectors were outdated, making it even more clear.

[rblatz]

Like being a member of the USB committee and help make USB-C a good standard with a reversible connector like they did with lightning?

Because they did that.

[footlose_3815]

Proprietary, and for the first half of its run, they were insanely expensive. Thin flimsy, always breaking. Short by default. They got nasty and stained quickly.

Over the years, third party cheap ones were risky. May damage port or device.

Has a stupid chip in the connector so people can't easily replicate it like a USB cable.

It was the purest example of proprietary capture in an age where the "The correct universal port" has been around for decades. The massive irony is not missed on me as they used USB mouses and keyboards to engineer a step backwards.

There's things I like about Apple, but I could never bring myself to defend the lightning cable.

[mistercheph]

You never needed speeds in excess of usb 2.0? LOL, this is such old hat, guys in IBM t-shirts telling me how nobody ever needed more than 64K, and why go third party with your treasured computation when you can get the best, the infallible, the International Business Machine?

[lynx97]

In the 15 years that I use iPhones now, I never needed the USB port for any data transfer except for one time when I used an external sound card to record things. Maybe I am a simpleton when it comes to mobile. I guess I deserve being LOLed at.

[tpholland]

Don't worry, that one has the energy of <i>the guy that was fired for buying IBM</i>

[stouset]

Apple didn't continue to iterate on Lightning because of the obvious future migration to USB-C connectors.

I will die on the hill that the Lightning plug is superior to the USB-C plug. Lightning could some day have supported USB-3.2+ speeds, if they'd chosen to work further on it.

Still, I have never once transferred data to my iPhone over a USB cable. I have used an iPhone since the first generation. For me, it has only ever been a means to charge the phone and to connect it to CarPlay. With wireless CarPlay and MagSafe charging, they could remove the port and I wouldn't miss it all that much (except for fast charging).

[fingerlocks]

Agreed. I really miss lightning after getting a usb-c iPhone. The best part of lightning port was how easy it is to clean. You can get lint and sawdust out of the clogged port with a toothpick. With usb-c, I can’t find a rigid non-metallic pick small enough to clean dust out of a usb-c port.

[cmiles74]

I'm pretty sure Apple switched to USB-C to comply with EU requirements. I don't think the success of USB-C has much to do with it.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/oct/26/iphone-us...

[stouset]

You would be demonstrably wrong.

Apple was already well under way on their USB-C transition. They literally shipped the first all-USB-C laptop in 2015. Not the first Apple laptop. The first laptop full stop. The iPad Pro switched to USB-C from Lightning in 2018. Every year since, fewer and fewer devices released with Lightning and more and more with USB-C.

If you need more evidence, literally just consider that Apple never bothered to invest further in Lightning. There were no further speed bumps. No updates in the USB protocol version supported. Even charging, USB-A to Lightning has been capped at a pitiful 12W. Does this seem like the behavior of a company that wants to stay on Lightning?

The iPhone would undoubtably have been USB-C in a generation or two even without the EU’s involvement.

[cozzyd]

Does the iPhone show up as a USB media device nowadays or do they still force you to jump through hoops?

[maxwelljoslyn]

I've had tremendous trouble trying to get my iPhone SE to show up as a USB device. Never did figure it out, but the macOS app iMazing has served me well as a workaround.

[stouset]

No clue. I have never needed it nor wanted it to. All my music streams from Spotify or Apple Music.

[seam_carver]

Some iPad Pros used USB3 lightning that used pins on both side of the lightning cable.

[ImJamal]

Apple is choosing to limit USB C to USB 2 speeds to encourage people pay for a more expensive model. The iPhone 16 pro max has USB 3 speeds after all...

[fingerlocks]

No, it just shipped with a slower cable. You get high speed transfer with a thunderbolt cable

[saagarjha]

No, the device can only do USB 2 speeds. There’s no controller for anything faster.

[fingerlocks]

No. The regular pro model (not max) supports usb 3 speeds. I’ve verified myself and its on Apple’s tech site:

https://www.apple.com/iphone-16-pro/specs/

[saagarjha]

For iPhones "Max" is basically irrelevant when it comes to SoC specs; the phones are differentiated by whether they are "Pro" or not. The Pro (and Pro Max) support faster speeds, and the regular iPhones do not.

[ImJamal]

Thunderbolt on iPhones are USB 2 speeds. Just because Thunderbolt could go faster, doesn't mean Apple actually allows it on their phones.