[genshii]

This is cool. It's funny how we are (or maybe just I am) so used writing the JS parts of websites outside of the actual HTML that my first thought upon seeing this was "wow it's crazy that this can be done with just HTML". And then looking at the source and seeing all the JS in plain old script tags made me remember that that's a thing that you can do.

[hakaneskici]

HTML is underrated. Most of the screens we look at daily, including our code editor are HTML pages.

[dotancohen]

VIM is an HTML page? Or JetBrains editors render an HTML page?

I know that some people code in an HTML page rendered in Electron, that would be Atom and VS Code and family, but that's far enough from the majority of people that declaring "our code editor" is disingenuous.

[sanex]

See my other comment in this thread. It's 3/4 devs according to SO.

[dotancohen]

Call me a neckbeard, but 3/4 of devs are not representative of 3/4 of devs in the industry in my opinion. And especially not of 3/4 of devs on HN.

According to: https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2024/technology#most-popular...

It seems that the order of most used technologies on SO is JS, SQL, HTML, CSS, and only then Python. We skip back to TypeScript and then Bash before finally getting to Java, C#, and C++.

I daresay that self-selected people who read, and sign up for, and fill out a survey at Stack Overflow does not represent the industry as a whole.

[dotancohen]

  > Call me a neckbeard, but 3/4 of devs are not representative of

That should read:

  > Call me a neckbeard, but 3/4 of devs responding to Stack Overflow surveys are not representative of

[OtomotO]

Eh, no?

My Code editor is NeoVim or it's IntelliJ

But there is no HTML page involved at all.

What I want to hint at: You're extrapolating the usage of VSCode.

[sanex]

According to the latest stack overflow dev survey 74% of respondents use vs code. I think it's a pretty safe statement.

[dxdm]

It's interesting, I also do not like the implication that we are all using vscode and feel slightly offended that someone would assume that I do. (The original statement is worded ambiguously and can be understood in this way.)

Anyway, I find it remarkable that a piece of software that I don't even use can trigger such a reaction in me, from a perfectly benign and innocent statement about the prevalence of HTML.

[hakaneskici]

Sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone.

That said, I'm genuinely interested in understanding why you felt that way, is using VSCode considered something to be ashamed of or something, is it because it's a Microsoft product?

PS: I have a strong positive bias towards VSCode due to personal history, so just trying to understand the developer perspective :)

[dxdm]

> Sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone.

I know, and it's nothing that needs an apology from you. Sometimes people (like me) feel offended over nothing, and it's more interesting for them to question why that is, instead of blamig the other party. That's not to say the reverse can't be true, just that it's tempting and too easy to project one's own offendedness if one isn't careful.

But back to the interesting question of what's up with vscode.

It's a very subjective thing for me, which probably explains the emotional reaction. I'm aware that vscode must be a very solid and practical tool for so many people to use it. But it gives me a negative gut feeling, mostly for the following reasons:

Using what is essentially a browser to edit text feels wrong and bloaty, not unlike going on a cruise ship just so you can eat at a restaurant.

It's made by Microsoft. I'm old enough to remember when they were not ashamed of being openly nasty, how they tried to lock us all into their own walled garden, and the glimpse Internet Explorer gave us into what that would look like. It's hard to trust this company, even if they have taken on a more benign appearance.

So, it just feels very wrong to use a weirdly bloaty browser-editor that a company with a track record of being a Big Bad Influence gives away for free. (I have similar misgivings about Chrome, which does not help vscode.)

Therefore, I prefer dedicated editors and IDEs made by people whose main goal is to make just such tools, and who I can pay for (as a purchase or donation). In summary: vscode works well, but using it makes me feel icky, and there are similar or better alternatives available to me that don't give me such a feeling.

So if there is a public statement that can be read to imply that I'm somehow happily using vscode feels a little like getting mud thrown at me, if that makes any sense, and there's a strong urge to clean up the record and, by extension, myself.

Yeah, I also think it's weird how that works. It's things like this that make me understand better the secret inner workings of people interacting with other people. :)

[hakaneskici]

As a side joke regarding vim; I have a theory that my exposure to typewriters as a kid prevented me from adopting vim as an editor :)

Pressing the letter keys for anything other than typing feels so weird to me. My brain might still be thinking of the SHIFT key as a physical modifier that literally shifts the typewriter letters from uppercase to lowercase position.

I admire fast vim users, it's a joy to watch them code.

[zaphod420]

I can relate to this. I also used typewriters, and my first computer was a mac plus. vim felt so weird and alien to me.

Then I decided to really give it a try and let go of everything I had learned. Now I'm a daily neovim user. kickstart.nvim is really what made it possible to use as a daily coding tool.

[harrisonjackson]

Pretty sure IntelliJ contains a bunch of bundled webviews for various things.

Also, extrapolating usage of vscode seems pretty fair since they said "most"

[noduerme]

Not necessarily a thing you should do if you want any kind of separability or version control. But definitely a thing you can do.

What blows my mind is that people use frameworks where they include stuff that's not even JS in their HTML, stuff that needs external JS to attach to it or hydrate it. That feels like the worst of both worlds.

I definitely come from an opposite place where JS is king and I don't have any files with an ".html" extension exept for "index.html". And I don't have any HTML in my JS, either. Anything that's a partial template is ".htm" and gets hydrated before it gets added to the DOM.