[holyra]

> The US is a terrible ally, for all the reasons you cite, but unless they somehow become a democracy, China would be worse in every way.

I am no longer considering the US as a democracy. From a west perspective, China doesn't want to annex Canada or Greenland.

[idiotsecant]

It's pretty much the peak of hysteria to think China is a reliable ally for a western democracy. It's like you're totally disregarding the fundamental issue that China is an absolute autocracy, fundamentally incompatible with western democracy. You don't like the US. Fine, fair enough. But let's not get crazy here.

[totallynothoney]

> China is an absolute autocracy, fundamentally incompatible with western democracy.

Lack of direct threats to sovereignty, reliability (in the sense of honoring commitments) and basic diplomacy are characteristics that trump ideological compatibility in domestic functioning. The EU is not gonna buy the chinese equivalent of the F-35, no one thinks they are "friendly" but a turn to China is inevitable. It doesn't help that your democratic institutions are closer in the spectrum to a Putin "election" than a Swiss one.

This is even more true for weak and small countries, Trump's Panama obsession has caused irreparable damage to an already frayed positive perception. Paraphrasing an interview with then Chilean president Ricardo Lagos when he explained to Bush his decision to not vote in favor of the invasion of Iraq in the security council:

How did you approach that moment of saying no to the United States?

I mean, I think there are two important elements here. The first is to understand that Chile is a small country. The international role we play is not very big. But precisely because we are small we demand rules in the international arena. Because if there are no rules, the big ones will mistreat us. Consequently, I explained this to President Bush on several occasions: We need rules because we are a small country. Bush found it difficult to understand the point about rules.

[kiney]

The US is arguably more democratic than the EU and many of it's member states. And I am an EU citizen myself

[throw0101d]

> The US is arguably more democratic than the EU and many of it's member states.

By what metric?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Ranking

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_indices

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

[kiney]

Democracy can't work without freedom of speech whis is seriously broken in mamy EU countries. In germany it's completely normal to get raided by police and all your digital devices stolen for posting pretty harmless memes or opinions.

[throw0101d]

> Democracy can't work without freedom of speech whis is seriously broken in mamy EU countries.

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Press_Freedom_Index

* https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/freedom-of-expression-ind...

[michpoch]

> The US is arguably more democratic

Because they have elections?

I always thought that when Americans say they’re a democracy they mean that in sort of propagandist way. Like, installing democracy as justification for military aggression.

But it seems that now some people really believe it? The bi-partisan system sponsored by corporations, where candidates are vetted through the systems - it reminds me of the Chinese communism with two parties instead.

Just compare it to Swiss democracy.

When was the last time an candidate from an independent political party became a president in the USA?

[kiney]

Switzerland is not EU

[immibis]

Explain.

[kiney]

Democracy can't work without freedom of speech whis is seriously broken in mamy EU countries. In germany it's completely normal to get raided by police and all your digital devices stolen for posting pretty harmless memes or opinions.

[southernplaces7]

>I am no longer considering the US as a democracy.

Despite the current administration being in power explicitly because it genuinely won a recent election in which the incumbents would have preferred to win instead. Trump's frequent shittiness and feces throwing aside, he got his second term through the long-established and very stable American democratic process.

That you would then go from this to claim China as somehow better, a country in which authoritarian one-party rule is absolute and in which nobody can throw an incumbent out of office, is just.... really absurd.