[namaria]

> If we're just a kind of machine

That is not true. Even our cells, with features that look a lot like machinery such as a proton pump, is on the whole several orders of magnitude more complex than any machine. Even a single human cell is more like an ecosystem than a machine. Let alone entire humans or even just the human brain. Consider that both cells and humans are capable of reproduction.

> If anything, the ability of LLMs to imitate human labor

Within extremely narrow confines and quite often going over into just conjuring up nonsense.

[TeMPOraL]

> That is not true.

Why? I'd say it's been self-evidently true for at least three decades now.

> Even our cells, with features that look a lot like machinery such as a proton pump, is on the whole several orders of magnitude more complex than any machine.

How many is several? I think that, at the level of a proton pump, individual components comes close to the order of complexity humanity deals with in man-made machines.

Also, at this level, things really look like machines, act like machines, quack like machines - there's no reason to not call them machines, given they obviously are. It's naturally originating molecular nanotech.

> Even a single human cell is more like an ecosystem than a machine.

Certainly. But then, an ecosystem is defined as a system made of bunch of varied stuff interacting with each other, finding balance through a set of feedback loops. An ecosystem of machines is still an ecosystem, and is arguably a machine in itself, too - after all, the term "machine" also applies to self-balancing / feedback driven systems, ever since we invented control theory and formalism to describe feedback loops.

> Let alone entire humans or even just the human brain.

Complex machines don't stop being machines when you keep adding moving parts to increase complexity. Or, at which point between a protein pump and a human being you believe the assemblage of molecular nanotech stops being a machine?

> Consider that both cells and humans are capable of reproduction.

What's that supposed to tell us? Human reproduction involves cell reproduction.

[sshine]

> a single human cell is more like an ecosystem than a machine

Good point. Not to mention the massive reliance on organisms like mitochondria and bacteria that don’t even share the host’s DNA.

> [imitate human labor] within extremely narrow confines and quite often going over into just conjuring up nonsense

Much like human labor.

So the intelligent, reflective and thoroughly iterated work is hardly replicated at all, and the poorly imitated, easily repeatable coursework and boring paper sludgework excellently so.

So we don’t just get to criticise LLMs for not actually being intelligent. We similarly get to criticise humans for not being so when we might think we are, either.

[TeMPOraL]

> Good point. Not to mention the massive reliance on organisms like mitochondria and bacteria that don’t even share the host’s DNA.

So? Does your car stop being a machine just because it's a complex systems of moving parts, many of which are dynamically balanced through feedback loops, which involve components sourced from different vendors, and substances that are not part of the original manufacturing data sheet?

Exactly what insight does this give us? I feel this is trying to contrast a single machine "unit" against a complex system, while also sneakily committing a naturalistic fallacy by using "machine" vs. "ecosystem" to imply "machine" vs. "life" in the magical sense (i.e. as if life was something beyond a physical process).