[onceler]

Except in this metaphor, the "ebike" has en engine as powerful as a new "landcruiser", and attachment points that could allow quickly/easily adding extra seating or cargo capacity. That such a thing seems absurd illustrates how poorly the metaphor fits.

The only reason that "iPads are just unserious computing devices for real work" is because Apple chooses to limit them.

I have a laptop which I only rarely use as a laptop - it moves between being connected to external monitor/keyboard/mouse in an office to being connected to external monitor/keyboard/mouse at home. I could get an iPad with a faster processor (my laptop is a few years old), that could connect to the same peripherals. The only reason it couldn't replace my laptop is because I can't run the same software on it.

Now, I understand why this is so. MacOS (or any other desktop OS) would not work at all well on a tablet interface, it would take a lot of work to make it work well, and those changes would make it less well suited to desktop use. Look at Windows 8, when Microsoft tried moving their desktop OS towards something that could also work on a tablet (or phone), and how unpopular those changes were. But that doesn't mean I have to like it (or wish iPads weren't so locked down, so I could run a different OS anyway even if Apple wouldn't support it).

[davemp]

Let’s not pretend that Apple could come up with some sort of dual windowing system (or just dual boot) scheme. We’re not limited by drive space anymore.

They don’t because it would hurt macbook sales.

[trog]

Maybe they don't because they've seen what happens when Microsoft tried to build an OS that was both touch screen and mouse & keyboard.

[beeflet]

It works pretty nicely on linux, you have "mobile" environments like phosh, KDE mobile and that are pretty seamless between handheld and docked "desktop" usage. They have support in app toolkits like gtk and qt for applications that change based on screen size to accommodate mobile users. It's pretty nice: https://tuxphones.com/convergent-linux-phone-apps/

The reason why it didn't work for microsoft is because adobe, valve, and aren't going to whatever framework just because microsoft wants them to. But in the linux world you can just fork and fix. Even apple has a lot of leverage to force developers to act in a certain way if they want that app store $$$.

Obviously the hardware isn't all there yet in the open source world (the pinephones are pretty underpowered), but in terms of software all of the right stuff is there. And don't tell me the UX is too complicated for new users. Gnome's design is literally a ripoff of MacOS and KDE's interface is pretty much Windows.

[walterbell]

In addition, Android apps and Debian Linux VM can co-exist on the same mobile display and there are rumors of desktop convergence between Android and ChromeOS on Chromebooks.

[Zardoz84]

KDE interface it's better than the current Windows. And if you don't like, you can customise easily to your taste. Even mimic OSX if you like.

[pjerem]

KDE have constantly been better than Windows interface.

And I don’t even use KDE (but I still like it and it was my first DE on Linux like 20 years ago).

[guappa]

Windows doesn't have anything similar to kirigami.

[serbuvlad]

Nah, it's just corporate greed on apple's part. They want to sell you both the MacBook and the iPad.

Apple is the only major notebook manufacturer which still doesn't offer touch on any of their notebooks.

Yes, Windows 8 was a failure, but Windows 10 and 11 are successful products and they are also built around touch + m&k.

GNOME and KDE on Linux also support touch input.

Take a look at this device:

https://rog.asus.com/laptops/rog-flow/rog-flow-z13-2025/

In terms of practicality, ergonomics etc., I think it's a much better proposition than either a MacBook or an iPad.

[marssaxman]

> still doesn't offer touch on any of their notebooks

Is that a feature people actually use? My last laptop had it, but I eventually disabled it in the BIOS because I never really used it, except by accident. I didn't find it comfortable holding my arm out at that angle, and I didn't like having all the fingerprints on my screen.

[Zardoz84]

Windows 10/11 it's a shit show. The last good Windows was 8.1. And the last great Windows was 7.

[trog]

> Windows 10/11 it's a shit show. The last good Windows was 8.1. And the last great Windows was 7.

Yeh I think there's this weird stigma that stuck after Windows 8 was a bit iffy but 8.1 was fine.

I preferred Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 (and MUCH preferred it to 11) because at least it still had all the old core Windows control panel stuff under the hood. Windows 10 feels like a way more awkward mismash of things because they seem to have simply just taken a bunch of stuff away.

The zillions of different UI paradigms smooshed together started in Win8 but Win10 is where they really seemed to pile it on.

Anyway, I'm not a Mac user. But I absolutely see why they want to keep touch interface separate from keyboard & mouse. It's hard.

[serbuvlad]

Oh, totally. Windows 10 and 11 suck for a great many reason.

But how they handle touch input is not one of them.

[DidYaWipe]

No; the last great Windows was XP.

7 started the regression in earnest, especially in the GUI.

[selectodude]

XP was just an ugly skin on top of the magnificent Windows 2000.

[HeatrayEnjoyer]

The GUI in 7 was so much better than anything before or since.

[goodlinks]

Imho the samsung dex approach is a fine concept (not saying that was fully developed or as extensive as what would be required to do it seriously for a proper desktop os)

Two totally seperate UIs that can run at the same time, a desktop one and a phone one.. it worked shockingly well imho.

Maybe an additional case where you can use the tablet as an extra screen, but honestly that could probably manifest as an app in the mobile UI.

[goosedragons]

Apple has already done that to iPadOS. It's not the best either. Honestly if they just let you run a full speed Mac VM, even if it was only while a KB/M was attached it would be a massive massive improvement.

[dredmorbius]

Microsoft Surface?

What happened?

(I've seen them. Thought that they were pretty cool as hardware, pity about the OS. I'm not aware of what's transpired, though obviously it hasn't dominated the mobile/tablet market.)

[rgarrett88]

They don't because they don't take a 30% cut of everything purchased on your MacBook.

[tengwar2]

I'm guessing that you meant "iPad" not MacBook, and you are referring to purchase of apps from the App Store, not online shopping?

[basisword]

Do you mean dual-booting macOS and iOS? If so, they probably don't because it would work like crap. The tablet is a touch based device and macOS isn't optimised for touch. Unless they want to release something very janky they'd need to invest a lot of time making macOS more touch-optimised and I think the number of people that would care about that or use it is miniscule. The tablet and laptop are completely different form factors and have completely different use cases. Making both devices capable of doing the same things would just unnecessarily compromise the design of both.

[Gareth321]

See Samsung DeX. It's not dual booting like 2000 with Windows and Linux. It's instant, switching from touch to desktop mode when docked. In the case of an iPad, it would switch to desktop mode if a keyboard is attached. It would allow people with an iPad to have a proper desktop experience when docked or connected to a keyboard, and an iPad experience when handheld. It would really be the best of both worlds. To make it easy, the touch display could even be disabled while in desktop mode.

[ghaff]

I do think there will be better convergence over time. The magnetic keyboard for the iPad is definitely a step towards that although I'm still debating whether to take that or my old MacBook on an upcoming month-long trip.

I also don't really disagree with your basic point. And I don't write it off (just) to Apple wants to sell more hardware. A lot of people like essentially a plus-sized iPhone and don't want a laptop. Probably hard to believe for many people on this forum but I heard people at work tell me that they have kids that don't want a laptop and are fine with just using their phones, much less a tablet.

Microsoft really tried to converge the different form factors from an operating system perspective and it never really clicked with people. Would I like a device that really a converged a 13-14" laptop and a tablet in the same general size range? Probably, in part because I wouldn't travel by air with both. But I don't think we're really there today outside of very casual tablet use outside of a browser or watching media.

[nwellinghoff]

Dude the keyboard case with trackpad… they should let you put macOS on it. The ipad is worthless with iOS.

[al_borland]

I don’t even think they need an entirely new windowing system, just a tweak of what they have on macOS.

Have the iPad run macOS, but instead of the desktop, always show LaunchPad, and force the use of Stage Manager or full screen apps. Have developers optimize their full screen view for touch. That’s basically the iPadOS experience without the limits.

[ljm]

Given how much of a premium Apple charges for storage, it's still a limitation even if not a technical one.

[mjlee]

What do you mean by dual windowing system? If you mean having multiple windows open at the same time the iPad does support that either simply having two windows sharing the screen (Split View/Slide Over), or having multiple windows on the built-in and external monitor that you can move around (Stage Manager).

I would love to be able to run a linux VM on my iPad though, it would make travel so much simpler for me. I know there are hacks to get it going with UTM etc. but there are too many compromises for my use case.

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

They aren't afraid of hurting MacBook sales they're afraid of breaking the app store chains. You can get software outside of the app store on the MacBook.

[gigatexal]

> The only reason that "iPads are just unserious computing devices for real work" is because Apple chooses to limit them.

That’s their choice to make. As consumers it’s on us to make the right choices. What the author wants is a laptop not an iPad if they want a general purpose computing device

The article is just a way to poke the giant that is Apple just like we used to when we wrote Micro$oft

[goosedragons]

What the author wants is a 2-in-1. The iPad is that, it's just hobbled to be a really bad laptop. All the hardware pieces are there, the power, the keyboard/trackpad accessory, the touch screen, the pen. If you go look at the marketing for the iPad line it really does seem like maybe you can do anything with them. It's only once you get serious that it all falls apart due to the software.

The iPad Pro was designed to compete with the Surface Pro and it simultaneously does and doesn't. Anybody who expects more than a tablet with pen input will be disappointed or frustrated eventually.

[gigatexal]

So get educated on its limitations and shop accordingly. Not sure why that’s so hard for folks.

I wish my iPads were more like laptops. But I’m not Tim Cook and I bought one anyway. So I didn’t vote with my wallet and I don’t have enough money to buy enough shares to vote with my money.

What I can do is buy something more appropriate or even something else entirely like a Surface.

[Terr_]

> As consumers it’s on us to make the right choices.

Which involves more like this, so that consumers can recognize kinds of dissatisfaction and share that it exists, rightly or wrongly.

[gigatexal]

Exactly.

Folks downvoting my comment are effectively saying “no I think everything thing should do everything. It has a CPU that can run MacOS then it should! Open up the os, let me do whatever I want. Let me impose my thoughts on a private company. Rawr!”

When instead just don’t buy the iPad if that’s what you want. The MacBook Air is what you want. Or… adapt your computing to use the iPad as it was designed.

The spoon doesn’t bend you bend ;-)

[beeflet]

We live in a world where the production of computers is largely guided by economies of scale, so if a handful of big companies lock down their hardware (and they do) that reduces my options significantly.

Apple is one of the largest computer companies and sells some of the fastest hardware on the market, yet it's totally gimped by their market segmentation. That space could easily be occupied by a different kind of company.

iPads are a waste of silicon. Yes, I do know better than the consumer.

[gigatexal]

And? You could go protest in front of Apple holding signs saying open up the iPad or make the iPad run macOS. Or… buy a laptop.

[signal11]

They’re both called Pro (iPad Pro and MacBook Pro) but thermals, RAM, etc are different.

I think it’s fair to say an iPad Pro and a MacBook Air should be capable of similar-ish things, and that iPadOS could have way more “power” features. Eg a terminal app to start with. But I’m not sure iPad Pros can really replace MacBook Pros.

[reverius42]

But they could absolutely replace 2005 or even 2015 MacBook Pros in terms of hardware capability.

[ben_w]

Or even 2024. Nobody is disputing the hardware.

Just software. Kinda odd, given how much more interest there is in iOS app development than in Mac OS app development; but it is what it is.

[ghaff]

Outside of probably Adobe apps in particular (and a variety of utilities) along with dev tools for the relative niche that does that sort of thing and local AI these days, most Mac OS users basically live in the browser.

[walterbell]

> e.g. a terminal app to start with

If the rumored convergence of Android and ChromeOS happens soon on Chromebooks, including support for Debian Linux terminal VM, then iPads will finally have real competition from touch-screen Chromebooks with both desktop & mobile UX.

[mullingitover]

It's really a fundamental design limitation of iOS/iPadOS (same thing, let's face it).

It's ground-up a super efficient, wonderful media consumption platform. It's really good for media consumption, like so much so it's kind of a problem. So I think the metaphor still fits, in that sure the ebike has a crazy engine but the tires don't have the contact patch to make the engine nearly as useful.

The problem is the UI is absolute trash for real work. I'm sorry, I know you can bolt stuff onto it to make it kinda usable, brilliant minds are doing their best, but I absolutely want to chuck the device across the room doing the most trivial work on it.

They could make it into MacOS, they don't, and they won't because they make way more money on these devices when they're used for media consumption.

[DidYaWipe]

Pretty much nailed it. Touchscreen devices are not for creating; they're for taking what you're given. They require big fat buttons for big fat fingers, which you poke like a trained pigeon to get your food pellet.

[0_____0]

Largely true, although I'm still blown away when I read about someone who has written whole pieces of software from their phone, on their bus ride to work or something.

[ghaff]

I think it's somewhat of a generational thing. I'm still somewhat blown away when I hear stories of kids writing school papers on their phones. I want to turn to a laptop for even more extensive searching or longer emails.

[Robotbeat]

Absolutely heroic to do that in spite of the multiple, aggressive attempts by Apple (etc) to try to make that effectively impossible.

[goosedragons]

Except you can easily add a keyboard and mouse.

[rectang]

Drawing is better on my tablet, an iPad Pro with an Apple Pencil. I also like StaffPad’s Apple Pencil interface for entering music notation better than anything using a trackpad or mouse. And I like taking handwritten notes using Quicknotes and the Apple Pencil, especially when I need to move around.

[metadat]

The new land cruisers are actually really weak compared to the old ones.

> the formerly beefcake Landcruiser went from a beastly guzzling v8 in 2021 to a weaker v6 in 2022-2023, and now, in 2024, a weak 2.4L supercharged 4-cyl sipper.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43031218

[za3faran]

That's the LC250 Land Cruiser Prado in the global market. They still sell the flagship LC300 abroad with both a V6TT gasoline engine, as well as a diesel.

For what it's worth, the previous generation LC200 also sold with a gasoline V6 in the Middle East, producing a whopping 240 HP, which was later increased to 271 HP.

The I4 engine in the Prado (sold as the Land Cruiser in the US) is more powerful than the V6 it replaces.

[Jenk]

Win8's UI was terrible because Microsoft are terrible at UI, not because of the duality.

[com2kid]

It was bad because they did research studies about the UI and then lied about the results of those studies so they could push the terrible Win8 UI forward.

I had friends who worked on the UX team for 8 and they reported general malfeasance all around. Microsoft was very scarred that tabled were going to take over the world (that was common wisdom in the trade presses at the time) and iPad sales used to be absurdly high. Win8 was the result of a scared company that needed to release something.

[goosedragons]

No, it was bad because of the duality. Windows 8 was actually pretty good on touch first devices like the Surface RT and was IMO considerably better than the iOS and Android alternatives at the time. It only really got awkward in mouse land.

[DidYaWipe]

They ARE terrible. They used to be very good at it. Microsoft advanced GUIs more through the '90s than anyone else. Tidy, efficient, and still innovative. Windows 95 through XP pretty much nailed down most of what a GUI needs.

Microsoft has since abandoned essential practices that make GUIs work, in addition to abandoning taste and organization. Windows is a sorry shitshow of defective design and defective function.

Don't agree? Then back up your objection instead of anonymously downvoting, crybaby. So tiresome.

[MattPalmer1086]

Pretty much everything Microsoft did in the 90s with GUIs was just playing catch up with Apple.

My first job in 1990, we had a load of PCs running DOS, and one Mac with a GUI and which also played sound and could read laserdisks (as I recall). Changing the error sound to "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that" never got old.

Windows 95 just about got to feature parity with the Mac 5 years later. It was really nice, but not exactly massively innovative.

[macintux]

I worked at a small software store (offshoot from WaldenBooks) sometime around 1990, and I remember a guy coming into the store asking whether a PC was “multimedia ready”.

I didn’t know anything about PCs, having grown up with Apple, but every Mac I’d used had sound and graphics, so I told him as far as I could tell it was all marketing crap.

Never occurred to me that PCs couldn’t do multimedia out of the box.

[dahauns]

Yeah, the 90s and Windows wouldn't exactly be the time range I'd associate with Microsoft and innovative GUIs (although Windows was mostly better than its reputation IMO).

Where MS actually did groundbreaking UI/UX work was in the 00s, ironically for most things not Windows - Media Center, Xbox 360, Zune/WP.

And of course they had to ruin it with botched product management and their bulldozing Metro/UWP everywhere strategy. The Windows 8.1 UX on a tablet was actually pretty good. Too bad it a) sucked on everything else, b) app integration was spotty due to relegating Win32 to second class.

[smegsicle]

engines are expensive, processors are cheap. and as revamp and degerret pointed out the hardware is a lossleader for the appstore

here's a nickel to buy a real computer, as they say