[jebarker]

> The thing that makes me sad about these conversations is that the people I talk to sometimes don't seem to have any appreciation for the thing they say they want to dismantle

Yes! This is what frustrates my about the pursuit of AI for the arts too.

[zmgsabst]

This seems obviously untrue: why would they be replicating it if they didn’t want it?

I see both cases as people who aren’t well served by the artisanal version attempting to acquire a better-than-commoditized version because they want more of that thing to exist. We regularly have both things in furniture and don’t have any great moral crisis that chairs are produced mechanistically by machines. To me, both things sound like “how dare you buy IKEA furniture — you have no appreciation of woodwork!”

Maybe artisanal math proofs are more beautiful or some other aesthetic concern — but what I’d like is proofs that business models are stable and not full of holes constructed each time a new ML pipeline deploys; which is the sort of boring, rote work that most mathematicians are “too good” to work on. But they’re what’s needed to prevent, eg, the Amazon 2018 hiring freeze.

That’s the need that, eg, automated theorem proving truly solves — and mathematicians are being ignored (much like artist) by people they turn up their noses at.

[jebarker]

> why would they be replicating it if they didn’t want it?

Who is "they"?

Most AI for math work is being done by AI researchers that are not themselves academic mathematicians (obviously there exceptions). Similarly, most AI for music and AI for visual art is being done by AI researchers that themselves are not professional musicians or artists (again, there are exceptions). This model can work fine if the AI researchers collaborate with mathematicians or artists to understand that the use of AI is actually useful in the workflow of those fields, but often that doesn't happen and there is a savior-like arrogance where AI researchers think they'll just automate those fields. Same thing happens in AI for medicine. So the reason many of those AI researchers want to do this is for the usual incentives - money and publications.

Clearly, there are commercial use cases for AI in all these fields and those may involve removing humans entirely. But in the case of art, and I (and Hardy) would argue academic math, there's a human aspect that can't be removed. Both of those approaches can exist in the world and have value but AI can't replace Van Gogh entirely. It'll automate the process of creating mass produced artwork or become a tool that human artists can use. Both of those require understanding the application domain intimately, so my point stands I think.

[zmgsabst]

> This model can work fine if the AI researchers collaborate with mathematicians or artists to understand that the use of AI is actually useful in the workflow of those fields, but often that doesn't happen and there is a savior-like arrogance where AI researchers think they'll just automate those fields.

In my experience, the vast majority is people who are hobbyists or amateurs in those fields, who are looking to innovate in approaches — eg, the overwhelming majority of AI music is hobbyists using models to experiment. Similarly, the overwhelming majority of people using AI graphics tools are making memes or pictures to share with friends.

Those people are poorly served by the artisanal approach and are looking to create more art — they’re not engaging in “savior-like arrogance” but trying to satisfy unmet desire for new music and art. You’re merely being snooty.

> But in the case of art, and I (and Hardy) would argue academic math, there's a human aspect that can't be removed.

This is the pretentiousness I called out (and you completely failed to address):

> That’s the need that, eg, automated theorem proving truly solves — and mathematicians are being ignored (much like artist) by people they turn up their noses at.

Nobody is stopping you from your artisanal proofs — have at it. You’re refusing to do the ugly work people actually want, so they’re solving their problems with a tool that doesn’t involve you.

[jebarker]

I think we're actually in agreement with respect to the needs of AI in music and graphics. When I say "AI researchers" I'm talking about people in industrial and academic labs. I consider the hobbyists you describe to be the users (who obviously can also be researchers). It's the desires/needs of the latter that should drive the research agenda of the former.

I actually don't understand your position here or what you think I'm arguing for. My point is that the real musicians, artists and mathematicians (whether they're hobbyists, academics or professionals in industry) are not well served by detached AI researchers just trying to automate their work for them. They need AI researchers to understand their workflows and build tools that elevate them, i.e. bicycles for the mind (or hands?).

Again, I do recognize there may be new fully automated workflows that can come out of AI research too but I maintain that the actual artists, musicians and mathematicians today have a valuable role in guiding that development too.