[godelski]

  > the primary aim isn't really to find out whether a result is true but why it's true.

I'm honestly surprised that there are mathematicians that think differently (my background[0]). There are so many famous mathematicians stating this through the years. Some more subtle like Poincare stating that math is not the study of numbers but the relationship between them, while others far more explicit. This sounds more like what I hear from the common public who think mathematics is discovered and not invented (how does anyone think anything different after taking Abstract Algebra?).

But being over in the AI/ML world now, this is my NUMBER ONE gripe. Very few are trying to understand why things are working. I'd argue that the biggest reason machines are black boxes are because no one is bothering to look inside of them. You can't solve things like hallucinations and errors without understanding these machines (and there's a lot we already do understand). There's a strong pushback against mathematics and I really don't understand why. It has so many tools that can help us move forward, but yes, it takes a lot of work. It's bad enough I know people who have gotten PhDs from top CS schools (top 3!) and don't understand things like probability distributions.

Unfortunately doing great things takes great work and great effort. I really do want to see the birth of AI, I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't, but I think it'd be naive to believe that this grand challenge can entirely be solved by one field and something so simple as throwing more compute (data, hardware, parameters, or however you want to reframe the Bitter Lesson this year).

Maybe I'm biased because I come from physics where we only care about causal relationships. The "_why_" is the damn Chimichanga. And I should mention, we're very comfortable in physics working with non-deterministic systems and that doesn't mean you can't form causal relationships. That's what the last hundred and some odd years have been all about.[1]

[0] Undergrad in physics, moved to work as engineer, then went to grad school to do CS because I was interested in AI and specifically in the mathematics of it. Boy did I become disappointment years later...

[1] I think there is a bias in CS. I notice there is a lot of test driven development, despite that being well known to be full of pitfalls. You unfortunately can't test your way into a proof. Any mathematician or physicist can tell you. Just because your thing does well on some tests doesn't mean there is proof of anything. Evidence, yes, but that's far from proof. Don't make the mistake Dyson did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV41QEKiMlM

[solveit]

> I'd argue that the biggest reason machines are black boxes are because no one is bothering to look inside of them.

People do look, but it's extremely hard. Take a look at how hard the mechanistic interpretability people have to work for even small insights. Neel Nanda[1] has some very nice writeups if you haven't already seen them.

[1]: https://www.neelnanda.io/mechanistic-interpretability

[godelski]

  > People do look

This was never in question

  > Very few are trying to understand why things are working

What is in question is why this is given so little attention. You can hear Neel talk about this himself. It is the reason he is trying to rally people and get more into Mech Interp. Which frankly, this side of ML is as old as ML itself.

Personal, I believe that if you aren't trying to interpret results and ask the why then you're not actually doing science. Which is fine. There's plenty of good things that come from outside science. I just think it's weird to call something science if you aren't going to do hypothesis testing and finding out why things are the way they are

[jebarker]

The problem is that mechanistic interpretability is a lot like neuroscience or molecular biology, i.e. you're trying to understand huge complexity from relatively crude point measurements (no offense intended to neuroscientists and biologists). But AI wants publishable results yesterday. I often wonder whether the current AI systems will stay around long enough for anyone to remain interested in understanding why they ever worked.

[godelski]

People will always be interested in why things work. At least one will as long as I'm alive, but I really don't think I'm that special. Wondering why things are the way they are is really at the core of science. Sure, there are plenty of physicists, mathematicians, neuroscientists, biologists, and others who just want answers, but this is a very narrow part of science.

I would really encourage others to read works that go through the history of the topic they are studying. If you're interested in quantum mechanics, the one I'd recommend is "The Quantum Physicists" by William Cropper[0]. It won't replace Griffiths[1] but it is a good addition.

The reason that getting information like this is VERY helpful is that it teaches you how to solve problems and actually go into the unknown. It is easy to learn things from a book because someone is there telling you all the answers, but texts like these instead put yourself in the shoes of the people in those times, and focus on seeing what and why certain questions are being asked. This is the hard thing when you're at the "end". When you can't just read new knowledge from a book, because there is no one that knows! Or the issue Thomas Wolf describes here[2] and why he struggled.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Quantum-Physicists-Introduction-Their...

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Quantum-Mechanics-David-...

[2] https://thomwolf.io/blog/scientific-ai.html