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by evil-olive 464 days ago
> There really was a series of government-funded studies concerning gender in mice

this is true...in the sense that if you make a list of government-funded studies, and ctrl-F it for "gender", and then ctrl-F that list for "mice", you get a non-zero number of results.

of the $8 million they're claiming, $3.1 million went to “Gonadal hormones as mediators of sex and gender influences in asthma”

so...they're studying asthma. using mice. who are given hormones. this is pretty far from the "they're making mice transgender" talking point.

if you read the abstract that they link to [0]:

> Starting around puberty and peaking during mid-life, women have increased asthma prevalence and higher rates of asthma exacerbations than men. Causes of these disparities remain unclear; however, studies have shown that sex-specific inflammatory mechanisms controlled by hormones contribute to differences in airway reactivity in response to environmental stimuli. Despite this, experimental models of asthma have not explored the contributions of sex hormones to inflammatory mechanisms in the female and male lung

asthma affects men and women differently, and they want to figure out why. specifically, they're trying to isolate the affects of hormones on lung tissue. that seems like a worthwhile subject to me? a simplistic understanding of biology would be that lungs are lungs, and the same between men and women. refining that understanding seems like a good goal for basic research to pursue.

if you continue reading the abstract, oh my god they mention that trans people exist

> and no studies have explored the effects of feminizing hormone therapy with estrogen in the lungs of trans women

but...this just seems to me like the scientific method? they're trying to eliminate as many uncontrolled variables as they can:

> In Aim 2, we will study the contributions of estrogens to HDM-induced asthma outcomes using male and female gonadectomized mice treated with estradiol

if you want to study the effects of sex-specific hormones, it seems logical that you would neuter them first, so that they're not producing any hormones of their own, they're only receiving the ones that you inject them with.

so you have female mice, with ovaries removed, who are receiving replacement female hormones. and male mice, with testes removed, who are also receiving female hormones.

if you want to call that "transgender mice", sure, knock yourself out. what I see is just a scientific experiment where they're tried to eliminate as many uncontrolled variables as possible.

now, why are they only doing it with female hormones (estradiol)? why aren't they doing the opposite experiment where the male and female gonadectomized mice are given testosterone? I don't know for certain, but the most likely explanation is that testosterone is a controlled substance in the US (due to its use by weightlifting bros), and so doing experiments with it would be more difficult because of the increased legal requirements.

0: https://reporter.nih.gov/project-details/10891526

1 comments

This often happens:

1. X says that A did stupid thing B!

2. Y makes fun of X because obviously A didn't do stupid thing B.

3. Z (that's you) points out that A did a thing B', that is like B, only not stupid, but technically X described it accurately if tendentiously.

How do you deal with that? I don't think the human political brain is built for this level of indirection. But realistically this will now always be a fight between X's and Y's faction, because Z's position, though true, is too complicated to fit in a soundbite.

I don't know how we get back from that. If it were truth vs lies it would be manageable, but the truth isn't even on the table because it's too big to fit into the argumentative paradigm.

> 3. Z (that's you) points out that A did a thing B', that is like B, only not stupid, but technically X described it accurately if tendentiously.

It was not "technically described accurately" tho. It was a lie and comment you are responding to makes that clear.

So I think that response to that tactic would be to simply call it a lie rather then "technically accurate".

It's more accurate to say that "a paper studied gender in mice" than to say "no papers studied gender in mice".

edit: Nevermind I retract this. I think you're right about this paper in particular. I guess it comes down to whether a study involving weird things with gender hormones is "about gender"? But it still seems like the core debate is ultimately not very much attached to actual reality.

edit: It's like the "chemicals in the water that turn the freaking frogs gay" Alex Jones meme - if you thought "no that's nonsense there were no chemicals in the water" you would know less about Atrazine than Alex Jones did, despite Alex Jones also being wrong about what's going on with the frogs. The way in which you think that someone is wrong can also be wrong, even if that someone is in fact wrong.

I love that Alex Jones example.

Atrazine is causing hermaphroditic frogs, chemically castrating them, and turning male frogs into behavioral females.

Trump often plays in a similar gray zone (e.g. dual meaning, hyperbole, simplification) with language because It is often a winning tactic.

Trump and Jones generate soundbites that cant be easily refuted with democratic soundbites. Overly simplistic rebuttals often end up even less accurate and more detached from reality.

I have given some thought to why this is, and I think it is for a few reasons. First, I think that democratic respondents don't share as much linguistic & conceptual framework with the target audience (e.g. a feminized male frog = a gay frog).

Second, and relatedly, I think rebuttals are afraid to engage with certain topics, and therefore end up tying themselves up in knots.

Last, is they have an oppositional defiant disorder where everything must be denied. "YES and" responses are off limits.

They cant just say "Yes, and poor chemical regulation is turning the frogs gay, and that is a bad thing"

I think it is more simpler. The actual message is not something about frogs and chemicals, it is "liberals are stupid and demented" or "gay are feminine losers" or "fear, liberals harm children". It is basically just exaggerated stereotypical schoolyard bullying, except with massive audience. When you analyze chemicals and hermaphrodism frogs in response, you area acting like a stereotypical nerd who does not understand the social situation or just does not have it in him to hit back.

The message is not scientific complain about frog, read message is that "we" should band up against "them" and collectively now bully this or that person/group. It is in-group bonding based on common enemy that is vilified.

You can not counteract that with rational rebuttal. That never works, not on schoolyard, not in work, not in politics. The whole things is about making people feel certain way.

> does not understand the social situation or just does not have it in him to hit back.

So I should adopt poor behavior because some other group did? There's sometimes a point to that for in person interactions with small groups but I don't see how that applies at larger scales. It becomes nothing more than an excuse for the poor behavior of your own in-group, which further exacerbates polarization for little to no benefit.

Realize that such behavior isn't going to change the mind of the opposition, and those in your group already agreed with you regardless. Then the bad behavior is a particularly harmful form of virtue signalling.

I mean, I kinda feel you can say the same thing about many left talking points. "Republicans are evil and thuggish cavemen" has been barely subtext for well over twenty years!
I don't have a source, but I half-remember that some initial study on Atrazine assumed that the frogs were turning gay because the researcher hadn't realized the behavioral sex change.
the paper used the word "gender" completely unnecessarily, no? those are sex hormones.
No. The studies are attempting to understand the effects of a specific human medical intervention called "gender-affirming hormone therapy" using mice as an analog. GAHT is an umbrella of treatments that includes more than just cross-sex hormones (e.g. transwomen often take testosterone blockers in addition to estrogen) so its a very reasonable use of 'gender' in context.
wait, I'm talking about the one linked upthread about asthma[1], and I think you are talking about this[2] one, right?

[1] Gonadal hormones as mediators of sex and gender influences in asthma - https://reporter.nih.gov/project-details/10891526

[2] A Mouse Model to Test the Effects of Gender-affirming Hormone Therapy on HIV Vaccine-induced Immune Responses - https://reporter.nih.gov/project-details/10849830

It'd be fascinating - if considerably evil - to see if we could induce dysphoria in mice.
> How do you deal with that?

Historically, with a slap, either open handed or with a glove to induce a dual. But we live in more genial times where such egregious violence is deemed unavailable.

> I don't think the human political brain is built for this level of indirection.

Indeed. People using incompetent and mistaken assumptions doesn't improve on their desire to tear up the political foundations in the US.