[charlie0]

You're missing the entire point of frameworks like Spring and Laravel. They are there to remove the power of choice and thereby actually create clarity and maintain speed over a long period of time.

What happens with the "I'll build everything from scratch" apps is they are oftentimes not easy to understand, different patterns end up being used, 3rd party packages get slapped on ad-hoc and over time it just becomes a frankenstein. Much better to start with a hard set of rails that follow a set of conventions you just have to learn once.

The whole "I can move faster" without a framework is just an illusion that appears at the beginning of building an app. It will quickly disappear as more devs and complex code features are requested.

[jacurtis]

Yeah this is the positive side of the double-edged sword of frameworks.

Without Spring, you would have every team rebuilding the database layer in 100 different ways. With 100 shoddy attempts at documentation.

So for better or worse, having one framework-standard way to interact with the database, modify headers, or do any number of standard tasks makes life easier even if it enshrouds the underlying system in abstraction and layering.

[liampulles]

Keeping dependencies and standards in check to keep apps maintainable is important, and I agree that if you don't start with a big framework then there is more potential for it.

I have to say it's not something I've experienced in practice, mainly because the teams I'm on take such things seriously, but YMMV.

[rudiksz]

The whole "I can move faster" with a framework is also just an illusion that appears at the beginning of building an app. It will quickly disappear as more devs who do all have a different idea about how the framework should be used put their hands on it and as more complex code features are requested that the framework does not support.