[kneath]

Might want to check your math there. At $20/lb, zero waste (!!), 18g of coffee is $0.80/shot. Add in 10-15% waste (accurately predicting exact supply of beans is almost impossible, plus dialing in, mistakes, and training) and a more standard 22g basket, you get $1.12 per drink.

Aiming for 25% COGS, that pushes up the price of a cup to $4.50 before milk, syrups, cups, etc. If the cost of coffee doubled, you'd be looking at the cost of coffee only being 38% COGS for a $6 drink. That kind of increase is not only going to completely remove all margins, but likely put you in the red per drink served.

[dns_snek]

Those are some far fetched numbers, that's the price of premium/specialty coffee and the amount is easily a double shot, even triple by Italian standards.

Common commercial beans are ~$24/kg at retail prices, and while 14g would be a double shot around here, let's assume that's a "single shot" since standards seem to differ a lot. That puts us at a much more reasonable $0.39 per "shot" of coffee after accounting for 15% waste.

On a personal note, I would actively choose to pay $0.40 more for coffee if I knew that the money went back to the farmers who produce it.

[UncleEntity]

I just did my math (because I was curious, not out of doubt) and it came out to $0.33 per espresso -- $20 for a 2 pound bag of beans from the grocery store @ 15g per "double shot" using the stock basket that came with the machine.

True, I'm not using 'premium' beans and probably doing it wrong but it works for me. Add in 'natural spring water' and 6oz of chocolate milk and I doubt it gets over $0.75.

[kneath]

Yes, if you assume coffee costs half as much as previously stated, it does almost halve the cost.

[snailmailstare]

If you are paying $20 a lb for expresso beans you are probably not a coffee shop and definitely not buying the coffee that costs $6 at a chain coffee shop.

[Kirby64]

The standard size for a bag of coffee is 12oz, at least in the US. $20/lb is equivalent to $15/12oz. $15 for a 12oz bag of coffee is pretty standard for anything that isn't bottom rung these days. It's not even 'great' coffee at that price; I'm just talking about something mid-tier like Counter Culture coffee which is available nationwide.

Anything cheaper than that and you are firmly into the budget coffee tiers.

[paxys]

There is no "standard 22g basket". Regular 8-12 oz drinks at most coffee shops have a single 7-10g shot. Double shots and larger sizes always cost more.

[Arch-TK]

Outside of Italy nobody uses single shot baskets.

All espresso based drinks you will find will be double-based.

And especially any place which is doing specialty coffee is going to be using larger doses to make extraction more consistent with lighter roasted coffee (in the realm from 18g to 28g).

It's pretty normal nowadays to see 20g or 22g baskets used in specialty coffee shops.

You can obviously order a single but the price difference is just a trick, the other shot gets dumped unless two people order singles at the same time.

[rlupi]

> Outside of Italy nobody uses single shot baskets.

Some Swiss coffee shops do that, but we are close to Italy here. Lots of Italians live here and would be very unhappy without their espressos.

[paxys]

I have no idea what you are talking about. The world's largest coffee chain (Starbucks) uses a single 1 oz/7 g espresso shot in their short (8oz) And tall (12oz) drink sizes. To get two shots you have to upgrade to "grande" (16oz), or specifically ask for (and pay for) an extra shot. Most coffee shops do the same for their smaller drinks.

[gnabgib]

Starbucks does use singles in some Tall drinks (your point stands - Latte & Cappuccino), but not all (Americano & Flat Whites have 2 shots in a tall).

Meta: I've never seen anyone order a short, the only thing I've ever seen in those cups are espresso pulls or water (but it turns out a Short Flat White still has two shots - worth a look)

[Arch-TK]

Starbucks makes coffee flavoured desert drinks. We are talking about specialty coffee shops. I've also never seen starbucks use a single shot basket to pour a single shot. They always just split, this is broadly the standard. Nobody outside of Italy is making single shots with a single shot basket.

[rightbyte]

> Starbucks makes coffee flavoured desert drinks.

You don't have to order the caramel drinks? There are coffee, latte, cappuccino etc too everywhere, right?

[kjkjadksj]

It depends how nice the machine at your shop is. Some are on a more automated machine that just has a button for one or two shots.

[protimewaster]

Using a single shot basket is different than using a single shot of liquid. Does Starbucks use single shot baskets?

[rlupi]

<iamveryculinary country="it">

That's because Starbucks single espresso shot are absolutely atrocious.

</iamveryculinary>

[MichaelZuo]

> Outside of Italy nobody uses single shot baskets. > All espresso based drinks you will find will be double-based.

Do you have a source for these claims?

[Arch-TK]

For #1:

Ask any coffee professional (someone who actually knows what they're doing).

Or just go walk around. Try to find a cafe which is using different portafilters with single spouts (an indication of a single shot basket). Or ask them. Buy a single espresso and watch what they do. You will never see them use a single shot basket or a single spouted portafilter. You will always see them split a double.

For #2:

Since nobody is using single shot baskets, and no reputable coffee shop is setting aside split shots to use in someone else's drink, the only time it would make sense to make a coffee from a single shot is if it would be too intense with a double (hard to imagine). The alternative is just wasting coffee in most cases except when you're lucky and your customers order drinks where you can use the other split shot. But I don't really see anyone splitting shots for milk drinks, maybe I've not paid enough attention as I don't drink them that often. Either way, you're still brewing a double shot.

You can again, just watch what they're doing. I've never seen a coffee shop where you can't see the bar and the machine. Just watch what happens.

Lastly, you can't dial in a single shot basket and a double shot basket at the same time, you need to have dedicated grinders dialled in for both. Nobody outside of Italy bothers with that. For specialty cafes you'd be doubling the number of dialled in grinders which would be especially impractical.

[jjcob]

At least in Austria, this seems to be a recent phenomenon, and limited to "fancy" coffee places. I was surprised the first time I saw the barista throw away half the coffee when I ordered an espresso.

I don't have statistics, but I think that single spout portafilters are still common in traditional Austrian cafes. I agree that you can't perfectly dial in the grinder for both single and double shot, but only a minority of people care about James Hoffmann levels of perfection and outside of speciality coffee shops nobody drinks light roasts.

One curious thing I saw in a bar in Italy that their machine had a much smaller diameter portafilter, so they can make a 7g shot without these conical sieves.

[Arch-TK]

Coffee is extremely finnicky and its really not as easy as you think to make even a passable shot when going between baskets with different doses. Even with an Italian dark roast.

This isn't about making amazing shots of light roast coffee, it's about the difference between an acidic and a bitter coffee. If your customers are buying and drinking straight espresso (also uncommon outside of Italy and some bordering countries) then they will notice and complain. Although I guess since most people in these regions drink singles, maybe cafes dial in for the single and just YOLO the double. I don't know much about how Italian cafes are ran as I am simply not into that style of coffee nor do I live in Italy. Outside of these regions where its common to drink straight espresso, most cafes just half ass the dialing in and if you ask for espresso its usually varying kinds of mediocre to trash. Regardless, nobody uses single baskets. In the specialty cafes where you can order a straight espresso and expect something decent to amazing, you also never see single baskets and single shots just result from a split with half of the shot wasted or in another concurrent customer's cup.

Regarding Austria, it seems like countries which border Italy also seem to often do single shots too. I didnt consider this but it also doesn't surprise me.

Regarding the portafilter, the industry has standardized on 58mm group heads in the commercial setting but there are still some smaller diameter machines out there which make pulling smaller shots much easier.

There are currently almost no new commercial machines in that format but its entirely possible it will change in the future.

I for one am considering buying an adapter for 49mm baskets so I can more easily extract good light roast espresso without needing the larger doses.

[MichaelZuo]

This reply doesn’t make sense… your own words and opinions can’t substitute for providing sources.

Unless you have some extraordinay amount of authority and/or credibility above and beyond that of the other HN users contradicting?

[Arch-TK]

I don't carry around sources for well established industry wide facts which you can verify yourself by opening your eyes. Do you carry around a source that proves that using a keyboard to type is faster than using morse code?

James Hoffman (coffee professional, winner of WBC) discusses the obscurity of single dose baskets in his video here. He mentions they're not often used in the home because he is discussing home espresso but the 50 caveats of single dose baskets apply to the industry too.

https://youtu.be/3oFV88PzEFE?si=_cUs33SeovZ0jHYJ&t=549

Discussion of single baskets by The Wired Gourmet pointing out that in the industry double and triple baskets are used and split in vast preference to single shot baskets. Also covering the difficulty of working with single shot baskets:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OnH2Woluck

The Real Sprometheus video talking about single shot baskets, their obscurity,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0XariiJiHk

A cafe owner talking about why single shot baskets are not worth it in a commercial environment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N3OlSa-4Wg

The reason people in this section are disagreeing with me is because they have never made specialty espresso and have no idea how difficult it is to dial in a single basket, even if you're a cafe.

[oglop]

lol this thread is amazing. Hacker news is truly a place filled with confidently wrong smart people. Showed this to my wife, a barista in Seattle, and she asked me why I go to this stupid fucking site. I wasn’t able to give a good answer other than boredom.

[layoric]

> you need to have dedicated grinders dialled in for both. Nobody outside of Italy bothers with that.

Huh? Most cafe's I see (Australia) the grinding is separate from the dispensing, and it is a single shot per pull. It's a big world out there mate, might be more of an isolated cultural thing than you realize or my neck of the woods is special. Either way, likely varies.

[Arch-TK]

> Huh? Most cafe's I see (Australia) the grinding is separate from the dispensing, and it is a single shot per pull.

This is just not how espresso works.

You can dose the same grind into a double basket and a single basket and you will never get the same coffee out of both.

Maybe Australia is special but in Europe, the UK and America, except for Italy (and apparently some surrounding places) nobody is using single shot baskets.

This is jusg a well known fact in the coffee industry.