[ssssvd]

I have Israeli friends across the spectrum (except maybe ultra-orthodox, but including Ukrainian/Russian olim). I also have friends from Lebanon (not even Arabs). They all share different stories, many of them very ugly ones, — and not just about Palestinians. And many of them are Jewish and critical of Jewish policies.

I know plenty of Israelis who are genuinely trying, and there are many of liberal-minded people with their conscience absolutely in the right place. I don't want to badmouth any of them.

My point is — if the same level of "trying" happened elsewhere (like in Xinjiang), Americans and Europeans would instantly brand it the worst kind of totalitarianism.

It's astonishing how the same first-rank predators who've been devouring the world for 500 years now posture as moral messiahs. And that's coming from me — one of them.

[YZF]

Don't let anecdotes shape your perception of reality. I have a feeling you're not familiar enough with the details.

Parent is correct. 20% of Israel's citizens are Arabs who generally enjoy equal rights. They are members of Knesset, they are judges, they are in tech, they are in academia. Some of them serve in the IDF (though that's an area that can still use improvement).

It's as far from totalitarianism as can be. And there's plenty of that in the world your Americans and Europeans let slide when it's in their interest. Most of the world is not free and democratic: https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel

"Jewish policies"? What's that?

Ask your friends from Lebanon what happened to the Christian majority that used to exist in that country? Or what happened to the Jews that used to live there?

[KaiserPro]

> Ask your friends from Lebanon what happened to the Christian majority that used to exist in that country

War my friend, war.

[wqaatwt]

> Christian majority

They had less children, there was a a massive influx of Palestinians and it was much easier for Christian Lebanese to migrate to other countries?

The civil war was pretty brutal and both sides committed some horrible atrocities.

[YZF]

Much easier as in otherwise they'll suffer material and bodily harm? Look at what the Syrians are doing to the Alawites now and then tell me again how Israel should just let those same people have the power in this balance.

[wqaatwt]

I’m not sure what you’re implying?

> tell me again

I never told you any such thing. Nor did I defend or express support for Hezbollah or other islamist terrorist organization. That does not mean that during the civil war the Christian side were the good guys.

> Much easier as in otherwise

No, much as easier as in it was historically easier for them to get asylum in western countries.

[YZF]

I'm implying you are painting the wrong picture about Lebanon. This is a story of a state which was established as a safe haven for Christians being taken over by force and ethnic cleansing of Christians and Jews. I'm not saying the Christians didn't have their share of bad actions (by western standards) but if I had to pick who are the good guys I'd still pick them.

"In the 1960s Lebanon was relatively calm, but this soon changed. Fatah and other Palestinian Liberation Organization factions had long been active among the 400,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanese camps. Throughout the 1960s, the center for armed Palestinian activities had been in Jordan. They were forced to relocate after being evicted by King Hussein during the 1970 Black September in Jordan. Fatah and other Palestinian groups attempted to mount a coup in Jordan by incentivizing a split in the Jordanian army, something that the ANM had attempted to do a decade earlier by Nasser's bidding. Jordan responded, and expelled the Palestinian forces into Lebanon. When they arrived, they created "a State within the State". This action was not welcomed by the Lebanese government, and this shook Lebanon's fragile sectarian balance.

Solidarity with the Palestinians was expressed by the Lebanese Sunni Muslims, with the aim to change the political system from one of consensus amongst different sects, towards one where their power share would increase. Certain groups in the Lebanese National Movement wished to bring about a more secular and democratic order, but as this group increasingly included Islamist groups, encouraged to join by the PLO, the more progressive demands of the initial agenda was dropped by January 1976. Islamists did not support a secular order in Lebanon and wished to bring about rule by Muslim clerics. " - Wikipedia

"During the Lebanese Civil War (1975-1990), an estimated 120,000 people were killed, and almost a million people fled Lebanon, with Christian casualties being a significant part of that total." -> Gemini (some estimates put the number at 150,000)

A million people were displaced, again mostly Christians. 2/3rd of the population.

You'd think the Muslim Lebanese could just have easily moved to Syria, or to Turkey, or other Muslim or Arab countries. I don't see how the argument that the Christians just left because it was "easy" for them to get asylum in western countries holds water.

Hezbollah didn't exist for most (or all) of the civil war in Lebanon. Not sure why we're talking about Hezbollah. The PLO wasn't really an "islamist terror organization" either.

[ssssvd]

My Lebanese friends are Armenian Gregorians, so I tend to consider their perspective relatively impartial — though, as you rightly noted, it remains anecdotal.

As for 'Jewish policies', there are, of course, issues around settlers, the West Bank, and Gaza. My own view on Gaza doesn't favour any particular side - it's a deeply complex and painful topic, and I recognise the trauma is still fresh. But I was referring to a different angle. Many of my Israeli friends are deeply frustrated by the influence of the ultra-Orthodox community and the state policies shaped by that influence - whether it's on women's rights, voting rights for Israeli Arabs, or broader social norms.

It's increasingly concerning given the explosive proportional growth of this community, which is on track to represent a third of Israel's population within a few decades.

And yet, the topic of the ultra-Orthodox and their influence is exceedingly rare in the West. I wouldn’t have been aware of it myself if I hadn’t had a personal experience. Years ago, a girl who had run away - literally - from a Hasidic community arrived in the UK, desperately looking for a way to stay. She was applying for jobs, including a position I had open. Meanwhile, she was staying with some soft-hearted Jewish family, working as a nanny for their kids. I still remember her eyes and the dedication — and desperation — in her voice.

My CTO at the time, an Israeli ex-IDF intelligence guy, soft-pushed me to hire her, even though she was absolutely unqualified. He told me, 'These people have enough resolve to become anything.' I didn’t budge. But I’ve never forgotten that experience.

[YZF]

My beef with the term 'Jewish policies', if it wasn't clear, was the mix of opinions about the Jewish people, Israel, and certain political powers within Israel. To me when people just mix "Jewish" and "Israel" that is either a sign of ignorance or a sign of animosity. But feels like this was just an honest mistake.

The ultra-orthodox and the Arabs are large minorities in Israel. They are actually similar in many ways as neither serves in the IDF and so both are "discriminated" against. In some ways the ultra-orthdoc are more anti-Zionist than the Arabs and I don't know they hold any specific policies on Arab voting rights in general (though their political parties align opportunistically with the Israeli right).