[jajko]

Lack of critical thinking I'd say, inward and outward. Gaping hole in nation's education system, just listen to what higher level says.

I have one german colleague with whom we dicuss sometimes deeper topics. He confirmed what I thought - germans, at least his generation, are/were raised to feel utterly responsible for WWII atrocities of their ancestors. I don't mean having objective information without the push to make them feel morally superior or ignoring inconvenient truths like ie russians always do, no I mean a very heavy guilt burden pushed on all young folks, who then don't have a clue how to process that.

Then they are stunned into any action even when a murderous nation is clearly trying to subvert and destroy their society and does very direct attacks against infrastructure. Anything, literally anything including losing without a fight, apart from actually standing up and fighting back aggressor. And rest of EU goes where germans go, can't ignore that massive influence. 3 years of brutal unprovoked war seems barely enough to move the needle at least a bit as we saw in recent elections.

[9dev]

> germans, at least his generation, are/were raised to feel utterly responsible for WWII atrocities of their ancestors.

A common misunderstanding, unfortunately also among Germans themselves. We are raised not to feel responsible for the crimes of the Nazis ourselves, but responsible to make sure the world never forgets what happened and how. It’s not about guilt for the past, but wariness for the future.

I’m not happy with other traits of our People either, but I think the way we handle the holocaust is the right one still.

[immibis]

It's not wariness for the future. It's performative absolution for the past. They're totally fine with mass-murdering 6 million of another ethnoreligious group. They're not fine with the funny cross sign, the hand raise, the words used as labels, or the idea of persecuting Jews. They're completely fine with the ideas those symbols represent, as long as you don't use the symbols, or the name, and the target group isn't Jews. In fact, they're doing it right now against Palestinians. They also learned it's bad PR to let German people see it happening with their own eyes, and it's bad PR to make it legal to complain about, so they don't do either.

[9dev]

I don't know which axe you have to grind, mate, but everything you said seems to be the second-hand—flawed—impression of a foreigner.

You're talking about Germans as if a unified group with a single opinion, which could not be farther from the truth. In the recent elections, we saw extremist parties from both left and right, as well as different centrist opinions, gaining similar share of the public vote. That is not a country that's "totally fine" with mass-murdering 6 million people.

I assume you're speaking of Palestine; let me tell you this. The relationship between Germany and Israel is, for—at least I hope—understandable reasons, a complex one. German citizens currently alive are obviously not personally responsible for the Shoah, but the state of Germany, a fictional construct, will carry this responsibility indefinitely. And that implies, to a certain extent, an obligation to stand on Israel's side. If you don't at least try to understand why this is, and why Germany, as an entity, thinks it is morally correct, then you don't get to tell us how to do our foreign policy.

In Germany, you can absolutely spread pro-Palestine opinions, as long as you don't demand violence against Jews. Blaming the Israelian army for war crimes against Palestinian citizens is fine, and a welcome part of public debate. Again: You may not agree with that policy rooted in the origins of the federal republic of Germany, but it is our policy. Accept that, our leave.

Having said all of this, I, personally, am highly critical of the settlements and the way the war on Hamas was carried out. I'm not fine with mass-murder, but I'm also not fine with terrorist attacks on civilians. This issue is more complex than you try to frame it, and picking a side is a step in the wrong direction. I can condemn terrorist and criminal soldiers and politicians at the same time, without pretending Israel is flawless or Hamas doesn't exist.

[account42]

> German citizens currently alive are obviously not personally responsible for the Shoah, but the state of Germany, a fictional construct, will carry this responsibility indefinitely.

Do you also think Italy should foverver be responsible for Roman conquest?

What about the other countries that have now claimed land previously under the control of the Reich? Why do you think the government of someone in Munich has any more responsibility than the government of someone in Gdansk?

This whole idea of holding nations forever responsible for supposed crimes of their forebeares becomes absurd pretty quickly. And absurd is also giving one group of people a special protected class - that means that yes, you have absolutely not learned the correct lession from the past.

> You may not agree with that policy rooted in the origins of the federal republic of Germany, but it is our policy. Accept that, our leave.

You don't get to tell people to leave just because they don't share your opinions.

[immibis]

The Israel/Palestine war is simpler than you are making it seem. Israel has killed more people, kidnapped more people, tortured more people, tortured them more thoroughly, killed more people during torture, done more terrorist attacks, and killed more people in terrorist attacks than Hamas. But that's okay because Israel didn't start the war, so the side that started the war deserved it. Oh wait, Israel did start the war by invading Palestine. Also, it's not terrorism when we do it.

Germany funds 1/3 of the war. Divide the numbers by three and Germany still comes out worse than Hamas. By the numbers, the west isn't merely "not flawless" - to reiterate, the numbers say the west is behaving worse than Hamas.

Which is probably why they don't put the numbers on the news any more.

And Germany arrests pro-Palestine protestors and shuts down pro-Palestine organizations very regularly. I live there and everyone who thinks the war is bad is scared to say it. It has happened that organizations that simply allowed their halls to be used to host a pro-Palestine lectures had their funding removed and were shut down, so organizations are afraid to do this unless they're about to be shut down anyway. Police just randomly arrest people at demonstrations - even if they can't find something to charge them with, the arrest is enough to deter them. Speaking Arabic is banned. There are some demonstrations but only a small fraction of people feel courageous enough to participate. Speech has been successfully chilled.