[crazygringo]

> but even non-tech people I know are wondering why Android phones run smoother than iPhones. Stuff that would be completely unheard of purely because of how noticeable 60hz vs 120hz is.

Are they? I'm a tech person and I can barely notice it at all. And I don't think I have a single non-tech friend who is even aware of the concept of video refresh rate.

Whenever there's something that doesn't feel smooth about an interface, it's because the app/CPU isn't keeping up.

I've honestly never understood why anyone cares about more than 60hZ for screens, for general interfaces/scrolling.

(Unless it's about video game response time, but that's not about "running smoother".)

[electrograv]

Yes, human visual perception exists along a spectrum of temporal, spatial, and chromatic resolution that varies from person to person — I’ve even met some people who can’t perceive the difference between 30hz and 120hz, while to me and most people I know, the difference between 60hz and 120hz is enormous.

So you could make the same argument against high DPI displays, superior peak screen brightness, enormously better contrast ratio, color gamut, etc. Also speaker quality, keyboard quality, trackpad quality, etc.

Where does this argument end? Do you propose we regress to 60hz 1080p displays with brightness, contrast, and viewing angles that are abysmal by modern standards? Or is the claim that the MacBook Air’s current screen is the perfect “sweet spot” beyond which >99% of people can’t tell the difference?

I think the market data alone disproves this pretty conclusively. Clearly a significant enough percentage of the population cares enough about image quality to vote with their wallets so much so that enormous hardware industries continue to invest billions towards make any incremental progress in advancing the technology here.

To be fair, I think there’s strong data to support that modern “retina”-grade DPI is good enough for >99% of people. And you can argue that XDR/HDR is not applicable/useful for coding or other tasks outside of photo/video viewing/editing (though for the latter it is enormously noticeable and not even remotely approaching human visual limits yet). But there’s plenty of people who find refresh rate differences extremely noticeable (usually up to at least 120hz), and I think almost anyone can easily notice moderate differences in contrast ratio and max brightness in a brightly lit room.

[VincentEvans]

Lol, reminds me of audiophile discussions when most people listen to youtube streaming a recompressed version of an mp3 someone uploaded.

[toxik]

It’s not imagined though, I use my partner’s phone sometimes and every time I used it I thought it was broken because the UI jitter was so jarring at 60Hz. Actually I’m still not convinced her phone isn’t broken. Also her flashlight resets to the lowest brightness EVERY time it’s cycled.

[crazygringo]

> because the UI jitter was so jarring at 60Hz

See this is what confuses me.

If the UI jitter on their phone was "so jarring", it's not because it's 60 Hz. It's because the phone's CPU isn't keeping up.

Like, nobody watches a video filmed at 60 fps and then watches their favorite TV show or a motion picture at 24 fps and says "the jitter was so jarring". And that's at less than half the rate we're even talking about! Similarly, even if you can tell the difference between 60 and 120 Hz, it's not jarring. It's not jittery. It's pretty subtle, honestly. You can notice it if you're paying attention, but you'd never in a million years call it "jarring".

I think a lot of people might be confusing 60 Hz with jittery UX that has nothing to do with the display refresh rate. Just because the display operates at a higher refresh rate doesn't mean the CPU is actually refreshing the interface at that rate. And with certain apps or with whatever happening in the background, it isn't.

[kllrnohj]

> Like, nobody watches a video filmed at 60 fps and then watches their favorite TV show or a motion picture at 24 fps and says "the jitter was so jarring". And that's at less than half the rate we're even talking about!

Those have motion blur.

> Similarly, even if you can tell the difference between 60 and 120 Hz

I don't know why you're phrasing this so oddly doubtful? Being able to tell the difference between 60hz and 120hz is hardly uncommon. It's quite a large difference, and this is quite well studied.

[jbverschoor]

It’s especially noticeable when scrolling, when moving windows, and when moving around the cursor

[klausa]

> If the UI jitter on their phone was "so jarring", it's not because it's 60 Hz. It's because the phone's CPU isn't keeping up.

No, it's not. This isn't about dropped frames or micro-stutters caused by the CPU. It's about _motion clarity_.

You can follow the objects moving around on the screen much better, and the perceived motion is much smoother because there is literally twice the information hitting your eyes.

You can make a simple experiment — just change your current monitor to 30hz and move the mouse around.

Does it _feel_ different? Is the motion less smooth?

It's not because your computer is suddenly struggling to hit half of the frames it was hitting before; it's because you have less _motion information_ hitting your eyes (and the increased input lag; but that's a separate conversation).

60->120fps is less noticeable than 30->60fps; but for many, many people it is absolutely very clearly noticable.

> Like, nobody watches a video filmed at 60 fps and then watches their favorite TV show or a motion picture at 24 fps and says "the jitter was so jarring".

People absolutely complain about jitter in 24fps content on high-end displays with fast response times; it is especially noticeable in slow panning shots.

Google "oled 24fps stutter" to see people complaining about this.

It's literally why motion smoothing exists on TVs.

[Aeolun]

If you switch from 60hz to 30hz you absolutely notice. I wouldn’t think it’s wrong to say it is jarring.

30hz is still perfectly usable, but you constantly feel as if something is off. Like maybe you have a process running in the background eating all your CPU.

I imagine going from 120hz to 60hz is the same thing. It should be theoretically indistinguishable, but it’s noticeable.

[bashwizard]

> It's because the phone's CPU isn't keeping up.

That's bs. You will immediately notice the difference when going from let's say 120 hz down to 60 hz on a fast gaming pc even if you're just dragging windows around. Everything feels jarring to say the least compared to higher refresh rates and it has absolutely nothing to do with the CPU. It's because of the refresh rate.

It's same thing going from 120 hz to 60 hz on a phone while scrolling and swiping.

It's quite interesting though that there are people out there who won't notice the huge difference. But hey, at least they don't have to pay premium for the increase performance of the screen.

[electrograv]

It’s deeply flawed logic at best (or an intentional red herring at worst) to cite the existence of pseudoscience discussed elsewhere, as an argument against real science being discussed here.

There is a well-understood science to both auditory and visual perception, even more concretely so for the visual side. The scientific literature on human perception in both categories is actively used in the engineering of almost every modern (audible/visual) device you use every day (both in hardware design, and software such as the design of lossy compression algorithms). We have very precise scientific understanding of the limits (and individual variation) of human visual and (to a slightly lesser extent) auditory perception and preferences.

[senordevnyc]

It's not about whether people can perceive the difference. They don't care.

[electrograv]

That’s why I specifically emphasized “perception and preferences”. Believe it or not, the science covers both - both what people can perceive, and what people care about and value.

[tomjakubowski]

It continues to amaze me years later how many people happily enjoyed watching 4:3 content stretched to 16:9, before 4:3 mostly disappeared from broadcasts.

[lillecarl]

Black bars?

[meindnoch]

If you try using a 60hz screen after a 120hz one, it will feel very sluggish and choppy. As long as you don't get used to 120hz, you'll be fine with 60hz.

[brk]

I've never really felt this way, and have used all kinds of screens of various resolutions, sizes, technologies, etc. For 99% of the typical use cases (chats, email, doom scrolling, etc.) there just is not a big enough perceptible difference for most buyers.

Screen refresh rate arguments are starting to have hints of audiophile discussions.

[hnuser123456]

I flatly will not buy any monitor, laptop, phone, tablet, or TV with a refresh rate below 120hz. I had 120hz 1080p over DVI-dual link in 2010. I can accept graphically demanding games going down to ~50 fps, but for UI interactivity and navigation, I'll take 120hz+ only.

[mvanbaak]

And there you are, watching a movie on that 120p+ tv. You do k ow the movie is only 24p right?

[hnuser123456]

I also (hopefully) don't have to interact with any UI while the movie is playing, but if I did, I'd want that UI running at 120hz. Maybe TV streamers will start advertising 120hz output soon. Maybe I should just replace my streamer with a spare PC that can output 120.

[volemo]

> Maybe TV streamers will start advertising 120hz output soon.

120 Hz won’t make a difference on a TV box, imo, as abysmal state of their UI is far greater of a problem. High refresh rate is nothing when a transition takes seconds and when scroll is jittery even by 60 Hz standards. :(

[meindnoch]

Movie cameras have something called "shutter angle".

A computer UI is basically a movie with 0 shutter angle, which looks super jerky at low framerates.

[kbolino]

While 3:2 pulldown isn't atrocious, a 120Hz screen does have the advantage that it's a simple multiple of 24 fps, which can't be said of 60Hz.

[meindnoch]

Going 60hz → 120hz: "Meh, I guess it's smoother? Whatever..."

Going 120hz → 60hz: "WTF? Why is it so choppy? Am I accidentally in low battery mode?"

It's similar to going back to non-retina displays after getting used to retina resolution.

[volemo]

What conclusion do I draw from this? “Stay away from high refresh rate screens not to spoil myself” :D

[meindnoch]

The key takeaway is: it hurts more to lose something, than it made you happy when you received it.

From this you may reach enlightenment.

[nasretdinov]

That's actually not a bad recommendation if you want to keep sanity as a tech enthusiast :). Otherwise you start noticing how much stuff still hasn't been upgraded to support high dpi and high refresh rate and you can't go back

[volemo]

Sadly, I’ve already tasted the forbidden fruit of HiDPI, so I do understand the feelings of 120 Hz aficionado. :’(

[forty]

The good news is that human brain is amazing and will probably revert to reasonable perception if you use your non retina 60Hz screen for long enough :)

[what-the-grump]

I have an iPhone pro, a 120hz LG, and a MacBook Air. At no point has the MacBook felt choppy…

I switch between various refresh rates daily, it’s barely noticeable.

[Jcampuzano2]

Yeah I think when they say non-tech people they mean a subset of people who know a bit about refresh rates (example being avid PC gamers for instance), but I'd still say the vast majority of people cannot tell 60 to 120. That or its not something they think about.

Certainly if they had both side by side they may be able to notice a difference, but in everyday use it makes no real difference to the vast majority of people. Anecdotally even though I do use Android myself, everyone around me still think iPhones look the smoothest (albeit most of them have never even touched a quality phone running android)

[smallmancontrov]

They don't know the words but they definitely notice it. "Why is it so smooth/rough?"

[Ataraxic]

It's one of those things where once you have used it, you will notice it. Given most iOS users aren't swapping between pro and non pro models, it's not something you think about.

[pishpash]

Just tried ProMotion vs. 60Hz on MBP, no/very little difference I can see. Sure it's just me but for me all the claims here are way exaggerated/psychological, almost like audiophiles being able to "hear" stuff that doesn't exist in a blind test.

[mort96]

It's baffling to me that some people claim to not see the difference. It's literally light and day to me. It's like someone looking at a low DPI screen and a high DPI screen and not being able to tell the difference.

[jofzar]

Yeah I move a window and it's immediately noticable. I'm jealous of people who can't tell.

[lukevp]

Same. The suggestion that it’s like audiophiles totally missed the mark, because lots of audiophile claims do not stand up to double blind tests. I can guarantee that 60 vs 120 hz blind tests would be insanely easy to pass if there was window movement or scrolling or basically anything but static frames.

[pishpash]

Are you sure the underlying application and the OS are even rendering 120Hz all the time? The panel being able to was enough to convince some people they're seeing "smooth scrolling" when it was actually 60Hz saving battery. That's the analogy to audiophiles.

https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/10skjxm/promotion_d...

[klausa]

As one of the upthread comments mentioned, this is something that probably varies with sensitivity between people.

But I am quite confident I'd be able to tell 60/120hz with a 100% accuracy within 5s of being able to interact with the device.

Probably under a second on an iPhone, ~2s on a Mac with a built-in display and slightly longer on iPads and bigger displays. Add ~2 extra second if I'm using a mouse instead of a trackpad.

It is _that_ noticeable to me.

[nicoburns]

I'm generally ok with 60Hz (the difference isn't that significant to me). But I can definitely see the difference in a head-to-head comparison with fast moving content. The easiest way to see it for me was to move the cursor around quickly. With 60Hz there are much more visible "jumps" between positions. With 120Hz it animates much more smoothly.

[Toutouxc]

In this case it really is just you. I can tell a high-refresh-rate display from across the room. I can tell if someone’s iPhone is a Pro even if the person is sitting five meters away from me on a moving bus.

On the other hand, my MacBook has a 120 Hz display and both my iPad Mini and iPhone Mini are 60 Hz, and even though the difference is night and day, I don’t really MIND using them. It’s just not that cool.

[fsckboy]

>Yeah I think when they say non-tech people they mean a subset of people who know a bit about refresh rates (example being avid PC gamers for instance)

no, he didn't say that. he said they comment on the difference between apple and android (their perception). you have to take that as a given.

that "it's because refresh rate" is his hypothesis, so yes argue that, but not by changing his evidence.

[cosmic_cheese]

I switch between refresh rates ranging from 60hz and 240hz every day and while I certainly notice the difference, unless I’m running games I adjust and forget about it in seconds. While VRR 120hz+ on all Apple device screens would be nice it’s not exactly a dealbreaker… it’s not like rendering my IDE with 2x+ extra frames changes much of anything.

[minton]

I run Windows daily at work on a 60Hz display. I recently got my son a gaming PC complete with a 144Hz monitor. I was genuinely confused why Windows itself “felt” so much better. Just dragging windows around seemed like magic. It’s not that the UI is lagging on my machine, it’s more the smoothness of things when they move around. It makes everything seem faster, despite us timing various things and finding no actual performance differences.

[jofzar]

In seriously surprised you can't tell, it feels significantly smoother for me to see a high refresh rate display. 60hz just looks sluggish/slow and wrong to me now. I had a side by side of the same monitor (was at a lan) and was watching my friend play and couldn't understand why his game looked so laggy untill I realise he had high refresh rate off. Turned on 144hz and it was so much better

[aardvark179]

That may have very little to do with refresh rate itself, and far more to do with the image processing and latency introduced by the monitor in different video modes.

[alpaca128]

On smartphones you interact with the UI in a more direct way, which probably makes the input latency even more obvious.

For me 120Hz is noticeable immediately when scrolling, though I also don’t find it important enough to warrant a higher price aside from gaming.

What I find more important is a high pixel density, though on phones that’s less of an issue as with PC screens - I have yet to find one comparable to the ones in current iMacs.

[seanmcdirmid]

It just feels more "fluid" and real, and then you get used to it and 60Hz feels jittery. I have an iPad pro, and its honestly made me consider going with an iPhone Pro (I still have just the non-pro model), although not quite yet. However, I notice a huge difference between scrolling on my phone and scrolling on my ipad.

Its the same thing about retina vs. the previous resolutions we had put up with. Yes, you don't need them for text, but once you get used to it for text you don't want to go back.

[pitkali]

For me, the crisp text was the reason retina became a must.

[declan_roberts]

They definitely are not. Not even most tech power users understand refresh rates let alone can easily spot the difference.

Still a nice to have, which Apple recognizes.

[klausa]

I actually call BS on the "not-being-able-to-tell".

I will give you that most people outside of this websites audience will not be able to _tell_ it's because of the refresh rate.

But I am quite confident if you take most of 120hz iPhone users phones out of their hand, turn on low battery mode, most will be immediately able to tell that something _feels_ off.

[stringsandchars]

> I actually call BS on the "not-being-able-to-tell".

I actually call BS on your BS.

I don't believe that people are standing with two phones in their hand - an Android and an iPhone - and comparing them the way that people here are suggesting. I don't think I have ever seen anyone do that IRL, and I don't believe anyone actually does it.

People go to the Apple Store to get their iPhone or to some other store to get their Android phone, because they are interested in either platform, and absolutely not thinking about hopping from one to the other based on some imperceptible screen-refresh 'smoothness'.

[klausa]

That's... not what I said at all?

The only claim I made is that if you toggle between 60/120hz on people's devices, they will be able to tell the difference.

[jjcob]

i used an android phone for a year with a 90 fps display. When I switched back to an iphone, it felt slow to me. i couldn't tell what the problem was, the brand new phone just felt sluggish. a year later when using my partners iphone pro, i realised that the sluggishness must be because of the refresh rate.

i think once you get used to 90 or 120 fps, then 60fps will just feel choppy. no need to compare them side by side.