[s1artibartfast]

I think both are similar in that they obfuscate real discussion on the purpose of war and tradeoffs.

If the goal is to be global police, that is a conversation worth having. Same if the goal is to show solidarity with our EU allies for its own sake. I think these other topics are manufactured consent.

[_DeadFred_]

This you?

"I think the "wmd equivalent" is the idea that Russia will move on Berlin if they're not contained in Ukraine."

Because now all of the sudden you are saying something totally different and nebulous 'world police' BS.

Why are your trying to equate Europe dramatically and instantly shifting their spending and EU policy to some nebulous 'global police' comment instead of addressing your original point, that you state no one actually believes 'Russia moving on Europe' is a real thing, and trying to equate it to the WMD lie?

You original point is BS, Europe believes to the tune of 650 billion just committed and breaking all of their long standing norms when it comes to defense that it is a real issue. Hense you having to move to some nebulous 'world police' nonsense.

[s1artibartfast]

I am asking what the core purpose and rationale for USA involvement is, and saying that this should be the center of discussion, whatever it is. It seems like nobody can agree or articulate what this is in a coherent way.

Everything else is a sideshow and distraction.

I don't see how Europe spending 650 billion answers this question either. The US spending money because Europe is with no deeper logic elementary school thought.

[_DeadFred_]

You really can't back your original statement can you? You made a specific claim:

"I think the "wmd equivalent" is the idea that Russia will move on Berlin if they're not contained in Ukraine."

Ie, that Russia being a threat to Europe is a convenient lie used to manipulate actions, and Russia isn't a threat.

Europe spending 650 billion and upsetting their long standing defense posture (especially Germany's post WW2 one) shows they didn't/don't view/weren't using the threat Russia poses as a lie to manipulate the USA into being 'World Police' and they are up ending their entire order to defend against Russia (actions with ZERO 'world policing' upside for them).

You tried to downplay Russia as a threat using a comparison to the WMD lie to lend false strength to your position that Russia is not a threat and you failed so miserably you completely pivoted from it.

Edit: News is now reporting that Germany is literally changing their constitution because they don't believe your position that Russia's threat to Europe is a lie.

[s1artibartfast]

I'm not pivoting from it. I think Russian tanks in Berlin are only slightly more plausible than Russian tanks in Washington DC. That is to say, I don't think it is a credible threat. I don't even think Europeans believe that. Germany has twice the population and 20 times the GDP of Ukraine, and Russia can't even conquer it. EU has a hundred times the GDP of Ukraine, and several nuclear-armed countries. Do you actually believe that?

If that is a real concern, I haven't seen anyone articulate how it is supposed to work. Just hand wavy threats that if Russia isn't stopped in Ukraine, the rest of the continent will be next. Somehow the same people speak out of the other side of their mouth that Russia is simultaneously the sick man of Europe, incompetent, and ready to implode any moment at the slightest breeze.

Reread my posts. I brought up global policing not as an example of a wmd lie, but as a more logical reason to support Ukraine.

Last, the USA spent six trillion dollars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Spending money isnt proof that they posed up legitimate threat of conquering the USA.

[_DeadFred_]

Strong 'Putin won't invade Ukraine' 2022 vibes. Russia will stop with what they took in Georgia. Sorry, I mean they will stop with Crimea. Sorry, I mean they will stop with what they took in eastern Ukraine (plus we also have to give them Kherson). But yes, through history including with Russia, appeasing and giving land ends any future land grabs.

Putin has explicitly stated he's getting the USSR back together. He was worked in the eastern Germany KGB. His actions/current proof leans to he wants it all back. Zero leans to he doesn't. You argue you don't think he could take it. Again, that has nothing to do with it. The question is will he try/does he intend to, and everything points to yes. The same people said 'He won't invade Ukraine, he can't' that are now saying 'He won't try to take more, he can't'.

[s1artibartfast]

If that is all it comes down to, then yeah, I dont think he will try to take eastern Germany, no matter what he would like. Regarding the various attributions, I dont know what people you are talking about.

If protecting Germany is your final answer for why support the war, I think it is fine for the US to sit it out until article 5 is invoked.

It is kind of like expecting Europe to be ride or die in a US war with China over Taiwan.