[mikevm]

Europeans don't like Americans, but are happy for Uncle Sam to bankroll their defense while they take 4-6 week summer vacations, retire at 60 with pension, have free education and throw away welfare on illegal migrants.

Maybe it's time to cut down the $700+B/year of spending on NATO and let the proud Europeans pick up the slack?

[tokioyoyo]

We both know that US wanted to do it, because that’s how you become the global soft-power and have influence on every other nation. Also, it’s not the fault of Europe that Americans don’t want free education, pension, 4-6 week summer vacations and etc.

You’re trying to find a reason why quality of life is worse in the states, compared to Europe and some Asian countries. However, you’re not willing to blame yourselves, and will keep finding an excuse.

Most of people who say the same thing at the same time call Europeans “poor, no growth, no ambition” citizens. And that’s ok. But you can’t have it both ways, you know. Go enjoy your richness or growing stock market.

[mikevm]

Europeans went wild with their social welfare spending so badly that now they need to import 3rd worlders because they have too many people who are on the government dole and not enough young people to pay into the system. Quite ironically, these "guests" are ending up eating away further from the welfare system and repaying their hosts with terrorism, as was recently seen, and will continue to be seen.

Also, it's easy to have social welfare when you have a homogeneous high-trust society... The more migrants the EU lets in, the more you see the whole thing deteriorate.

There's no such thing as "free" anyway, it's always paid by someone else. Pension at 60 is unsustainable, free education just devalues it, making it harder to fire people makes it harder to hire people, etc...

Europe is in economic decline, it's in population decline (as many other western nations btw), it's becoming more authoritarian (the UK prolly arrests more people for social media posts than Russia nowadays), and it's failing to compete on the world stage.

[tokioyoyo]

Again, literally all of it are just projections. Eurozone quietly accepts non-double-digit growth YoY in exchange for fairly balanced life style. If you guys don’t want that, that’s up to you. Until this point, all the previous governments in charge made their decisions on behalf of Americans. Retroactively blaming others is just… weird? Go figure out a government or method that’s best for you, since everyone writes their own destinies. At the end of the day, everyone will adapt, change and survive. To the better or worse. Pointing at others’ houses’ messiness while yours is extremely far from being clean is just not nice.

[antifa]

You might be surprised how much American "double digit growth" is just the upper class erasing the middle class.

[tokioyoyo]

Fair. I just really dislike when someone actively starts bullying others and talking down on them. Especially when the life in their own state is just, objectively, by most metrics, is worse.

[mountainstar]

Balanced poverty lol. And it isn't "accepted", the EU is having a meltdown about how they're becoming less and less competitive vs EU. No politicians has ever said "yep, all the policies we support are the reason you're falling behind, and that's a good thing!"

(And I'm British, so this isn't some pro American rant)

The UK's pathetic growth, bad under the previous government, now even worse under a new leftist government that is bringing in continental style employment regulations etc, is the main topic of national debate right now

[surgical_fire]

> Europeans went wild with their social welfare spending so badly that now they need to import 3rd worlders because they have too many people who are on the government dole and not enough young people to pay into the system. Quite ironically, these "guests" are ending up eating away further from the welfare system and repaying their hosts with terrorism, as was recently seen, and will continue to be seen.

As a "3rd worlder" that migrated to Europe, this comment is wrong on so many levels that I have my doubts if you are trolling or are just really stupid. Maybe a little bit of both.

Europe imports people for the very same reason the US imports people (and the US imports A LOT of people). Advanced economies are complex beasts that need manpower and expertise beyond what a single nation can generate - And most European nations are small-ish.

The country I originally moved to actually had unemployment in low single digits. It needed people. It was not because "everyone was living on the dole".

But you are free to repeat your fairly racist and jingoistic bullshit around. It's a free world after all.

[tokioyoyo]

Sorry to continue the thread, but it’s a bit baffling to see how a good chunk of America really thinks without them everyone else would be a toast. Sure, we would be worse off, but so would they. Basic self-sufficiency is almost every normal government’s major goal.

[surgical_fire]

By all means, I am enjoying this.

For a very long time I wanted EU (and other parts of the world) to rid itself from US influence, that I consider to be malignant to progress. US always leveraged its power (both soft and hard) to its own benefit first and foremost.

What I never expected is that this would happen by the US itself shitting its own pants so hard. I am actually very optimistic that EU will be forced to step up its integration, and other economies will be forced to step up on trading among themselves (not only goods, but also knowledge, services and cooperation) to replace the vacuum left by the former all powerful ally.

Interesting times ahead.

[mikevm]

The US literally bailed Europe out in two world wars. Does that fit your category of "not being toast"?

When someone else bankrolls your defense by spending almost a trillion dollars a year that leaves quite a lot of the budget for other things, doesn't it?

[fcsp]

Don't want to discuss your statement about "bankrolling" here, I'm not into the topic enough.

However, since this post is about US GDP I'm now curious, what do you think where this money is going and contributing to GDP?

[surgical_fire]

> When someone else bankrolls your defense by spending almost a trillion dollars a year

That is the whole defense budget from the US, not how much it spends in Europe.

And yes, EU should stop relying in the US for defense. That arrangement only benefits the US, to be frank, EU should develop its own defense industry instead of strengthening the defense industry of a foreign nation. Especially now that said foreign nation is essentially enemy territory.

[bdangubic]

too funny how the MAN made you believe you cant have nice things because of “nato budget” :)

[onlypassingthru]

Whoa, and who's gonna replace the loss in the primes' revenue, hmmm? They pay top dollar lobbyists to prevent such a radical notion.

[timeon]

> bankroll their defense

Like post 9/11 Article 5 or Afghanistan or Iraq?

Also decent amount of European defense budget went to US manufacturers. This will probably change with de-facto end of NATO.

[mountainstar]

True but still a massive net gain for America. The irony is, as the Founders knew, America can actually afford to basically not even have a standing army, it's a massive, heavily civilian armed continental sized country with weak neighbours and an ocean either side. So logically Europe should have a far larger defence budget than America.

[nobunaga]

lol

Not only could America have had better benefits than Europe but you guys chose over and over again not to yet it’s Europe’s fault.

Love watching you guys shoot yourselves and yell at others. Popcorn has never tasted better.

[mikevm]

> Not only could America have had better benefits than Europe but you guys chose over and over again not to yet it’s Europe’s fault.

The social welfare experiment has negative expectation. That's partly why the Europeans are importing young migrants from 3rd world countries who despise them -- they are running out of people who pay into the ponzi scheme.

I can't wait for Trump to exit NATO and show that the European king really had no clothes after all.

[nobunaga]

I can’t wait either. Because then Europe will get its shit together and reduce its need on America. Then you guys are truly fucked.

See the news about the 800 billion euro investment in Europe for Europe defense? Thanks America. Also did you see the stock market? To think that tariffs would somehow benefit America. All you’re doing is isolating yourselves and forcing decoupli by. Let me know how your relationship with Russia goes. According to history, not very well :)