[SJC_Hacker]

Yes, the only thing that genuinely scares the rich is wealth taxes.

It is next to impossible to hide the fact that someone owns something like real estate

In addition to real estate I might consider other property such as bank accounts, at least above a certain threshold. Presumably that cash has to be invested somewhere (or should be encouraged to do so)

If we could get a real wealth tax, I would do away with income taxes like some states have done (i.e. Texas)

[TeaBrain]

>It is next to impossible to hide the fact that someone owns something like real estate

Real estate can already be taxed via property taxes. Unrealized gains in securities can't be taxed the same way as their value is much more volatile, with potentially large daily swings. Texas makes up for the lack of income taxes with relatively high property taxes.

>In addition to real estate I might consider other property such as bank accounts, at least above a certain threshold.

Interest from savings accounts is already taxed. The wealthy don't hoard their wealth in bank accounts though.

[danenania]

While it doesn't make sense to tax unrealized gains, they could be taxed if they are used as the basis for a loan. Loans on unrealized gains are one of the main ways the wealthy are able to live lavishly while paying very low effective tax rates.

It seems fair that you shouldn't be able to have it both ways—if you are getting any financial benefit from an asset, including a loan, there's a pretty strong argument that you yourself are "realizing" that value.

[TeaBrain]

The property or goods purchased with a loan are subject to tax.

[danenania]

Sure, but everyone pays those taxes. If we are talking about inequality and the wealthy having ways to get out of (or better said, drastically reduce/defer) taxes that everyone else has to pay—i.e. income tax—I think loans on unrealized assets is probably the first thing to look at.

[TeaBrain]

Banks are also taxed on the interest from the loans. Loans backed by assets are not just free untaxed money as you seem to think they are. If an entity is unable make the payment on a bank loan, then they would be subject to having their collateral seized, and the bank would then eventually sell the assets, which would be subject to capital gains.

I think it would be more realistic to heavily tax inheritance and re-evaluate trust based loopholes.

[danenania]

> Loans backed by assets are not just free untaxed money as you seem to think they are.

I mean, you’re clearly moving the goalposts here. We’re talking about tax on unrealized gains for the wealthy, not sales tax, property tax, or taxes on the bank.

If you’re able to keep taking out new loans to pay off the old loans until you die, with an appreciating “unrealized” asset as collateral, then yes all that money is effectively tax free if we’re talking about income tax and capital gains.

[jb3689]

Part of me wonders if doubling down on taxing transactions (which tariffs is categorically) can thus work. It seems like an elegant way to avoid having to deal with wealth vs income.

[dumah]

What if I told you that the largest and most liquid market for assets in the United States wasn’t covered by any transaction tax?

[keernan]

>The property or goods purchased with a loan are subject to tax.

There is no such federal tax in the USA.

And it is just ludicrous to suggest that stock holdings cannot be subject to a wealth tax. The value of stock holdings are established all the time when the wealthy provide their net worth for their business dealings.

The IRS requires me to submit the value of my IRA holdings as of the end of the year to determine how much will be taxed the next year (by forcing me to withdraw a dollar amount - determined by the asset value of my holdings - which vary minute by minute when the markets are open). So, I guess it's ok for the IRS to measure my wealth each year to enable the IRS to collect a tax on that wealth - but some how you say that's impossible to do for billionaires?

[UncleMeat]

I really don't see why "equity is volatile" is some insurmountable problem. We see the same exact "problem" show up with day trading, where it is possible to accumulate a lot of taxable gains and end up with less than you owe if you don't sock away the money to pay for taxes at the time of locking in the gains.

If an equity is valued at $X on some date when we lock in the value for a wealth tax or a tax on unrealized gains then sell enough of your equities on that date to pay for the tax and store that in a zero-risk asset. This can easily be done automatically.

[paddez]

Unrealized gains can be taxed - for example, Ireland has a Deemed Disposal tax on ETF investments, where after 8 years, any gains are considered to have been realized and tax is due (even if no sale has taken place)

[TeaBrain]

Deemed disposal subject ETFs can be taxed under an eight year exit tax scheme, but this can be avoided by simply investing in US domiciled ETFs or individual stocks.

[titusjohnson]

Just ban loans against ephemeral assets. Loans must always be backed by concrete things. No funny money.

[jb3689]

> Yes, the only thing that genuinely scares the rich is wealth taxes

Why though? We’ve already established the end game if we don’t do this. It’s hard to imagine society willingly regressing back to feudalism. What we likely need is a sensible plan which gradually adopts wealth tax rather than a radical step change.

[robocat]

> scares the rich is wealth taxes.

I'm scared of 2% wealth taxes (as discussed in New Zealand) because I believe that will take 100% of retirement savings over time. And I'm no multimillionaire. Say portfolio returns 6% and drawdown(spending) is 4% then 2% takes 100% of gains.

The 1% or 2% figures sound trivial to the voting majority but they really are not trivial. Cue discussion on compounding.

The other issue is Forcing sale of private owned businesses. If you fuck with the incentives to grow a businesses, you will end up with a shitty economy and everybody suffers.

Apart from the obvious 2% * decades = lots (for low growth investments).

I could work to create new high-margin export income for New Zealand: I have the skills. But I don't work because I hate our taxation system: NZ loses.

An economy needs to incentivise everyone to work including the wealthy: otherwise it bombs. It scares me to see people in the US want to introduce features to cripple their most successful economy. I think most workers poorly understand businesses or economic incentives.

[wingworks]

We (New Zealanders) are already getting taxed 1.4% on wealth effectively, if your on a tax rate of 30%+ (most people).

Most people just don't know about it. Due to the FIF rules. Any international investments you have get taxed like this (it's not so clear cut, but more or less). The only exceptions are NZ investments and Aussie investments, maybe. There is a tool to check if an aussie share is except from the FIF rules. e.g. Aussie ETFs aren't, even if they invest in only aussie stocks...

So everyone with a Kiwisaver (retirement scheme), aka most people, have large portion invested overseas, and thus are paying the 1.4% p.a.

It also discourages high net worth people from moving to NZ, as they usually have investments outside of NZ, which will get taxed once they move here (after a few years exception).

The small "win" we do get is you can (cost bases) invest up to $50k overseas without the 1.4% FIF rules applying, (though dividends are still taxed). But like no one knows about it, and managed funds can't take advantage of this, so most people don't utilize this, especially not low income people, who generally aren't that well educated on finances.

Don't get me started on our lackluster retirement scheme, Kiwisaver, with near 0 tax incentives, and propping up the housing market prices.

[robocat]

There's heaps more invisible wealth taxes that increase the marginal tax rate by a few percentage points. Rates, Insurance, increased financial liabilities, means testing, unequitable seperations, oodles of time wasted managing money, yadda yadda. And if you want to keep up appearances then the costs skyrocket up.

If you don't have anything then you can avoid certain costs, or sometimes you can get subsidised.

The wealthy also get some financial boosts e.g. house appreciation. And white collar crime has cheap convictions (or you can avoid consequences)

I've never had kiwisaver because I believe in the value of optionality with my own money. I severely hate locked up money. Being able to deploy money has gained me a small house worth of money. The FIF rules are a cunt to manage and Sharsies are SHIT - they've promised to deliver an FIF report but haven't done so.

[sidewndr46]

Interestingly the actual website for Kiwisaver describes it as a "savings scheme". In the US we just have our own national Ponzi scheme, Social Security

[wingworks]

I think our Kiwisaver is more like the US's 401k. We also have NZ Super, which you start getting at 65, and isn't asset tested (yet). But most can't live on just NZ Super. Though some living frugal and have paid off their house, do live within super, even some renters living do make it work, but it's very bare bones.

While our NZ Super isn't asset tested, our residential care subsidy (elderly care) is asset tested, and is very expensive. When you get old and don't die suddenly, then it's likely your assets you've accumulated over the years will be used to pay for your care (though there are some way around it, but not usually cost effective unless you have a large amount of assets).

But, the elder care the govt gives you (if you can't afford it aka no assets), isn't very pleasant, so you really should plan for it while you're working age, and have investments large enough to cover the costs (which most in NZ don't do).

I don't think we have insurance here that covers elder care.

I believe the guys across the ditch (Australia), have a better retirement system setup. While in NZ our Kiwisaver by default contributions are 6% (total. 3% employer, 3% employee), been this since it started just about, while in Aussie, the current min default total is 11%. Though Aussie's govt supported retirement payments are asset tested, where as they aren't in NZ.

I think having a higher min default is probably best for everyone, as most people don't change from the default.

[throwaway2037]

If you think US Social Security is a "Ponzi scheme" (it is not, by definition), then do you also think all other highly developed nations are running Ponzi schemes because their national pension is paid from current accounts? Something that I see rarely discussed: Most national pension schemes need means testing. If you already have reasonably large savings, investments, or passive income, then you don't need the full amount of national pension. You can receive less. The remaining portion can be redirect to those in greater need. One thing we have learned in economics in the last 10 years, when poorer people receive direct cash payments from govt's, they spend it into the economy as a much greater portion than those wealthier.

Also, the US has 401(k) savings plans. It is pretty similar to Kiwisave.

[dgfitz]

> If you already have reasonably large savings, investments, or passive income, then you don't need the full amount of national pension.

Says who? According to whom? Who gets to make that call?

[SJC_Hacker]

There would be a threshold below which the rate is zero, just like there is with income