[techorange]

Can you explain more about being bamboozled? Bamboozled about what? Bush tried to convince us that Iraq was creating WMD’s when they weren’t, but left and right were pretty united at the time as a reaction to 9/11, like it wasn’t just the right that was bamboozled, it was bipartisan.

Left and right were pretty united in defense of Ukraine until Trump came along, but what’s the lie they were trying to convince us of. That Russia started the war when really Ukraine did?

Trump said that the other day, but if he really believes it, why doesn’t he seem to stand behind it?

I haven’t heard a clear confident description of what the lie is???

[pxmpxm]

> explain more about being bamboozled

Russia invaded and annexed part of Ukraine in 2014, and util 2022 approx 0% of left leaning voters could tell you what are ukrainian national colors are. There was a phenomenal propaganda effort to mass market that conflict to that demographic, between social media (russian warship, ghost of kiev etc) and on the ground efforts - all those blue and yellow ribbons worn by flyover state visitors in dc circa may 2022 didn't materialize out of thin air. The amount of emotional messaging to bracket discourse - putin is a murderer, criminal, dictator blah blah - should clue you in on the fact youre being told a stance. Should we cut and run or stay the course?

You literally could see that even earlier today with Zelinskiy going outwith pure emotional framing (putin hates ukrainians), which is literally the same exact black/white good/bad device that Bush used with "they hate us for our freedom".

[mcphage]

> The amount of emotional messaging to bracket discourse - putin is a murderer, criminal, dictator blah blah - should clue you in on the fact youre being told a stance.

Yes, it’s been good PR on their side, but you specifically said bamboozled. Where are they lying?

[techorange]

The past three years we have been with propaganda from both sides of this conflict. It’s a war. To point to one side and say that’s the side that’s lying is just more propaganda, it’s not a serious breakdown.

[cholantesh]

Literally in this case meaning staring at a spirograph blocking your view of the screen, I suppose, because he never said that once. Trump did accuse Zelenskyy of having hatred for Putin, and didn't get much of a response, but that's not quite the same. What he did say was that Vance's characterization of Ukraine's path as warmongering was at the very least misleading if not much worse. He did this by pointing to a decade's worth of ceasefires that were brokered by the US and Europe that Russia broke with impunity, and held Trump and Vance's feet to the fire about bucking that trend. Pretty wild that you see that as emotional framing, and not the literal shitfit of a response it elicited from a head of state and his deputy.

[Paradigma11]

Yes, it was far too convenient, so we ignored the problem of Russia's imperialism for far too long. Then we didn't.

[loanedempathy]

Simple question:

Does Russia owning more of Ukraine further the interests of the United States, European states, and/or NATO?