[appel]

Deeply embarrassing and disturbing. What a sad spectacle to see the President and Vice President of the United States so beholden to a foreign dictator that they would debase themselves in this way. Unpresidential doesn’t even begin to describe it.

My heart breaks for Ukraine. The outcome of the November 5, 2024, election will prove to be a tragic mistake.

[hn_throwaway_99]

Shameful, embarrassing and disturbing is putting it lightly in my opinion.

The thing that is sad for me is I just feel like I don't have an iota of anything in common with people that could possibly support this kind of behavior. For so long I've been struggling to empathize with Trump supporters. I certainly understand the anger at the Democrats and Democratic leadership (I often share that anger myself). I understand the anger at the direction of the slow societal breakdown I've seen in many parts of the country (and which, ironically, I feel that Vance elucidated very well in Hillbilly Elegy). I understand many of the policy differences.

But it's what I see as the complete moral baselessness and behavior I can only describe as narcissistically bizarre that I just fundamentally can not understand. So often I hear myself saying "Imagine how any other politician would have reacted 20 years ago". And now it's like so many people are OK with stuff like this (never mind that insane Gaza video from just yesterday...)

I simply cannot understand it. And to be honest, I'm not sure I want to understand it, beyond seeing the whole Trump movement through the lens of something like a cult. I just have never been so ashamed of my country in my life.

[Chance-Device]

Because the system traps people into a false dichotomy.

There is no candidate, no party that perfectly represents my views, or yours, nor could there ever be. Yet people are forced to choose between one of two bad options while being fed propaganda from both sides. Everyone is too distracted by the fighting between the sides to question the system itself.

Why is it that in a democracy, instead of voting for policies we believe in, which would seem to be the point, we instead vote for men, who then have power over us? And then they can do whatever they want?

Direct democracy. Maybe it’s flawed too, but it’s less flawed than this.

[hn_throwaway_99]

I understand all this. I've tried to emphasize how I completely understand being totally disgusted by the Democrats on a range of issues. I also understand the feeling that when the system isn't working for you, you have a strong incentive to just support whoever says they are going to blow that system up.

But take a look at the different groups who support Trump:

1. Consider Republicans in Congress. Even if they don't say it, I'd bet dollars to donuts that 75% of them are as disgusted by that Oval Office performance as I am. So you either have the ~25% (and I hope that estimate is high) Marjorie Taylor Greene types, who I already think are disgusting for a host of reasons, or you have the other 75% of them that are just complete and total cowards. They know this is wrong, they know Trump is a creature void of morals, but they're too afraid to go against him, and for what, their jobs? A lot of them are already rich. And there of course have been principled Republicans who have stood up and said that this is just wrong, and especially as it applies to Russia, this goes against everything the party supposedly believed for the past 75 years.

2. There of course is a sizable portion of Trump supporters who are racist, sexist, would be fine if all gay people just died, etc. Now, I definitely believe the Democrats overestimate the size of that portion, and painting all Trump supporters with that brush has been a fatal mistake, but let's not deny these people actually exist. For all the hand-wringing by Democrats about why they lost in 2024, a huge part has to have been that a large percentage of this country is just unwilling to vote for a woman for President (again, definitely not the only reason, but when the division is close to 50/50 all it takes is a couple percentage points).

3. So then you have a lot of people who don't support Trump strongly but think he will improve their lives in some way. And sure, call me one of those "arrogant liberals", but when I hear people talk about some concrete ways about how Trump will actually improve their lives, it's pretty laughably stupid to me. I mean, give me a single policy action by which Trump will help reduce inflation. Whenever I've tried to engage supporters on policy issues, the arguments I get back honestly just sound like rationalizations for "I hate the other side" - which again, I understand, I just don't get this desire to be suckered by a strongman. Trump is so nakedly transparent about his narcissism and how he doesn't give 2 shits about anyone but himself (again, did anyone actually see that Gaza video?)

So I agree with everything you've said about the failures of the 2 party system. I just can't use that as an excuse to understand supporting what I believe to be grossly morally reprehensible behavior on a daily basis.

[Chance-Device]

Yeah, but how you feel about it is separate from what might be done about it. If you just want to blow off steam and morally condemn people, be my guest, but this is exactly what everyone has already been doing, and it doesn’t seem to have helped. You might even say, it only ever makes things worse.

There’s a structure to the political system. There’s a structure to the way that people argue, and what they will accept as arguments. There’s a structure to how we are manipulated by the media and how social media is manipulated. These structural issues are the real problem, but as humans we’d rather see everything as being attributable to the individuals involved. Also known as the fundamental attribution error.

Those issues are solvable in my view, in the long term. Getting there might be rough.

[mewpmewp2]

It seems like Russia has managed to polarize US and manipulate one side completely to do their bidding. It's a strategy that they call ideological subversion. Russia has managed to split US in such a way that one side will always pick the opposite opinion from the other side and tie their egos and identities with it, effectively manipulating them into doing anything. For that side the most important thing becomes owning the other side, and not caring about anything else. It is very sad. US right is just victim to a very effective mass manipulation technique from a foreign actor specialized in this.

[tyleo]

I’ll be honest, I think both sides are being manipulated in the sense that they each see the other as less over time.

On their whole I think Democratic policies retain more sense at this point but a lot of bullshit snuck into Democratic thinking. The intentions of that thinking were good but the result was obvious division.

[Chance-Device]

I think this is true, but the fact that it’s even possible is the problem. The US will probably develop an immune system against such manipulation in the future. In fact, that effort may already be underway.

[mewpmewp2]

It's crazy that this is possible. I wish US would develop this immune system. Where do you see this light at the end of the tunnel to think that effort may be underway though? I hope you are right.

[SubiculumCode]

I cannot help but think that we are a victim of prosperity...even the poor have time for lurid entertainment, and that is what this all is for most people. Entertainment. Televised team sports. People have lost perspective on what real loss is.

[Trias11]

Which outcome would not be a mistake?