[lacedeconstruct]

I thought the main idea of vim is that touch typers who are really fast can do everything without lifting their fingers from the main row, which is a really motivating reason imo, it starts to breakdown heavily when you dont already have this skill though

[mattnewton]

Even with that skill, I am arguing that figuring out a regex for your find and replace operation, or a sequence of commands to jump to the next line, are cognitively demanding in a way scrolling the mouse until you see it, or clicking around a minimap, is not. People do not tend to actually wall clock the time they spend thinking about what to type. I would have this experience too- I would feel like a wizard having stitched together a sequence of multiple commands, and remember that, not the fact that I didn’t get anything done that day I wouldn’t have with sublime text or vscode.

I think there was a time when vim saved a lot of time over other editors, and it still feels like a powerful time saving when you kick off a macro, but I am not convinced it actually is saving time over modern editors with their far easier to use features and plugins.

[robenkleene]

I've used Vim for 10 years+, and I think this is a spot on summary. One thing you covered well that I'd emphasize is Vim feels really good to use, which is insidious. There's a game-like satisfaction to using Vim that I think makes it difficult to objectively evaluate as a user whether it's actually more productive since it's so cognitively satisfying to use.

Even with all that said, I think the type of productivity that Vim's edited language provides is overall pointless. E.g., it just doesn't optimize things that are actually hard and/or time consuming (at least relative to other similar solutions to the same problems, like multiple cursors). The one exception being really complex edits, per the macros you mentioned (e.g., `:cdo norm` is the most effective way to do a complex edit that isn't supported by a IDE refactoring command that I know of), but I don't think most folks in this thread are talking about that when they talk about Vim's productivity (e.g., stuff like `ci"` is cool, but come on who cares, it's not like making small edits like that have ever been a big deal).

[drekipus]

This is the unspoken differentiator imo.

I have seen an alarming number of programmers hunt-n-peck typing, and it's getting larger..

To them, vim is probably on-par or slower

[mustermannBB]

To be fair the importance for devs/programmers to touch type is often very exaggerated. Not saying it is not a benefit but is is far from a "must" or something that is a detriment to producing quality work. In the days where secretaries were typing out memos from their boss touch typing was much important or needed.

[theshackleford]

I am likely bad at what I do, and am not a real developer, instead being someone who just uses "code" to look after infrastructure (or at least I was.)

I never felt a need to punch things out so efficiently that minute differences in time spent on or off keyboards, or my touch typing speed matter. Most of my time that consumes the budget allocated to me is honestly spent in researching and thinking. Once I get to writing the code, sure I could shave down the time to implement it by a few minutes each time, but its not enough for me to care about honestly.

That being said, I do use vim, but only because I was at one point a junior systems administrator and my CTO demanded to know why I was not already using it and instructed me it would be good practice to do so as its installed on everything we ran and so...vim it was. Not for efficiency, or because it empowered me but instead because it was there.

Now that I do more busy work instead such as discoveries, PIR's etc, sure my touch typing speed matters but its very different work.