[default-kramer]

Right, and that's what you use to find the vulnerability. But imagine you've found the vulnerability and now you want to use it to update all of your parking tickets as paid. Without the schema, this is going to be quite tricky and will generate a lot of failed SQL. With the schema, you might be able to do it on your first try.

[tptacek]

Which is why in the ordinary course of a pentest you'd use the SQL injection vulnerability to recover the information in the schema.

[LegionMammal978]

Is there not any SQLi vulnerability in practice that doesn't allow such an information recovery? That is, is the schema-recovery step so foolproof that it can always be performed on any target form? GP is suggesting that this may be difficult, depending on the kind of signal that gets returned from the form.

[tptacek]

In my entire experience as a software security practitioner, which at the time of my testimony encompassed some hundreds of assessments of SQL-backed websites, the availability of a schema has never impacted my ability to exploit a SQL injection. It's not my job as an expert witness, nor Matt's job as a plaintiff, to invent improbable scenarios where security could hinge on schema availability. The court (all of them, in fact) found that testimony dispositive, so I'm happy to leave the issue there.

[hot_gril]

"Blind" SQLi is a thing, but even in the real-life example I could find, it wasn't exactly blind. They could still use the timing to get one bit of info at a time and discern the email addresses. https://www.invokesec.com/2025/01/13/a-real-world-example-of...

It's hard to imagine a case where you can't even get info based on timing. But it requires more effort and knowledge to exploit this.

[default-kramer]

Maybe I'm ignorant, but if the account the app is using doesn't have access to the information_schema how do you do this?

[lcnPylGDnU4H9OF]

I don’t think that’s a very common setup but perhaps I’m just exposing my own ignorance. Just consider the popularity of ORMs. They explicitly load the schema into the application in many cases.

[kmoser]

Not just that, but perhaps the app is smart enough to lock you out the second it detects an attempt to gather the schema, e.g. by logging and automatically responding to a query that displays the schema. Then you have to look for other ways in (another IP, etc.). But if you know the schema in advance, you have a better chance of a one-shot injection that accomplishes your malicious goal.

In other words, advance knowledge of the schema may make it easier to act maliciously.