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by uoaei 477 days ago
A more diplomatic and uncontroversial way to put it is that the event horizon is the only thing we have any evidence for.
2 comments

We don't have evidence for event horizon. Black hole is a hypothetical object to begin with, it exists only in mathematics, what evidence.
The photos we have of black holes?
I am a physicist but I think he is more or less technically correct. We have photos of black hole like objects but no evidence that they conform to the object described in general relativity except in broad terms. There are the obvious issues with quantization, for example, but there are also multiple ways we can formulate GR-style theories which give different black-hole solutions which have not yet been disambiguated by experiment.

I don't think there is any harm really in calling the objects we have "taken photographs of" (these images are model dependent, so to call them photographs is a bit of a stretch) "black holes," but if we want to be totally precise a black hole is a specific concept in GR, a theory which most people think is incomplete, and we have only found some correspondences between that theoretical object and some observations in the world.

It is an interesting exercise to apply this sort of thinking to (for example) electrons. Do we know electrons exist? In an informal sense, obviously, but in a more detailed sense I would argue care must be taken. We know that QED, for example, is not renormalizable, and thus we ought to be careful to distinguish the notion of "QED electrons" from "Standard Model Electrons" from "the things that leave exposures on our detectors."

But we do know considerably more about the qualities of the physical objects we measure and call electrons than we know about the qualities of the physical objects we measure and call black holes. I don't think its unreasonable to be careful about these things.

Observation of collapsars nicely corresponds to GR predictions about collapsars without event horizon, there's no real need to invoke black holes here. You might call them black holes, but I imagine people will be confused why these kinda black holes don't have event horizon, singularity, coordinate discontinuity, information paradox, cosmic censorship and all that stuff black holes are famous for. They already conclude there's evidence for event horizon, because it's a widely advertized feature of black holes and there's a photo of black hole.
We only have photos of collapsars, not black holes. For mathematics the difference is big, only black holes have peculiar mathematical properties.
> We only have photos of collapsars

Yes, we have photos of collapsed stars, some of which were above the Tolman–Oppenheimer–Volkoff limit and became black holes. When they are not above it, they either become white dwarf or neutron stars.

Volkoff's calculation demonstrates that a star above the limit begins to collapse. It doesn't support the claim that they already became black holes, especially this can't happen globally with galilean synchronism even under slightly unrealistic assumptions. In the end, it's a mathematical calculation under assumptions; if you want to connect it to reality, you need to understand what it claims exactly and estimate what error is introduced by difference between its assumptions and reality.
That definition requires a higher standard of proof than a Nobel prize committee.
A photo of a star is cool, why not give a prize for it. Or maybe they use attention economy. You can't exactly blame them for attention economy, can you?
Photos as the only evidence of existence are a very convenient way of claming the nonexistence of something that reflects zero light. The baby-out-with-the-bathwater is that it also means there's no proof for anything outside the visible range of light, that's too small to show up on a CCD, or that predates the camera. Or you.
Two event horizons, because gravitation cancels out in the center of a black hole.

ps. Energy is sucked up from the center by second event horizon, but matter is pushed inside, forming a dense and cool crystal, a solid foundation for second order effects to play.

That assumes there is gravity, or even universe, "inside" the black hole. We don't have any evidence of that.
Black holes are a prediction of general relativity. The same theory predicts that all properties of spacetime exist up until the singularity. You cannot simultaneously believe in black holes and some sort of discontinuation of spacetime before the singularity.
That is a theory that makes predictions, not evidence. As you may note in my comments above, I am speaking exclusively to evidence.
It doesn't make sense to talk about black holes outside the context of GR. What do you even mean by black hole if you can't describe it in the language of GR?
> What do you even mean by black hole if you can't describe it in the language of GR?

You’re right. But playing devil’s advocate, there are QM objects that look like black holes [1] as well as observations of a supermassive object at Sagittarius A*.

[1] https://arxiv.org/html/2307.06164v2

The parts of GR we trust in order to interpret the data from our instruments is trusted precisely because there is evidence to back up those parts of the theory. We have no idea if that theory holds on the other side of a boundary across which no causation can occur.
Occam's razor says that you must present a proof that they are not existing in a black hole.
> Occam's razor says that you must present a proof that they are not existing in a black hole

Occam’s razor absolutely doesn’t predict that the weird thing that breaks physics occurs twice and then precipitates a crystal.

Physics is fine, it just model, which breaks.

However, we can see that stars are eaten by black holes, and then can be partially released back years later, so it's proven that 1) «an event horizon» exists, 2) matter can pass the «event horizon» in both directions, 3) light cannot pass the «event horizon» in one direction.

I do not introduce a new physics, like a «singularity», without any evidence. Occam's razor is in my hands now.

> 2) matter can pass the «event horizon» in both directions

Where was this proven?