[jayceedenton]

10+ years ago Clojure had a fantastic introductory experience. lein new and away you go. lein was so good and effective, for both tiny hello world projects and real production apps.

The experience has gotten worse and worse now for a decade. The core team have continued to take things in a worse direction (supported by a small group of fanboys) and most newcomers are now completely baffled by the tooling.

[hlship]

The cli/deps.edn tooling is different from Leiningen, and far, far less complicated IMO. I've written a good number of Leiningen plugins and it was always brutal to get anything to work properly, especially in combination with other plugins.

Leiningen attempts to be everything to everyone in terms of building, testing, and packaging Clojure code. It's Clojure's version of Maven.

cli/deps.edn effectively reduces things down to a) what should be on the classpath and b) what should get executed. Working inside an IDE? You just want it to download the dependencies and build a classpath. Running nREPL? Add that to the classpath, and set the starting namespace to start nREPL. Packaging an application? Run dependencies that do that work, based on the clojure.tools.build library.

I was there myself; I used Leiningen and didn't take the time to figure out deps.edn --- until I did, saw the light, and converted all of Walmart's projects to use deps.edn, which greatly sped up our build and improved our dev experience.

[KingMob]

tools.deps is less complicated mostly because it just flat-out does much less. To mimic everything lein can do required adopting half a dozen other libs and writing your own build scripts.

It's better now, but people are pretty uncritical of the core team, and adopted tools.deps before its surrounding ecosystem was ready to fully replace lein.

The upshot was, everyone got to rebuild the wheel for a couple years. And I say this as someone who once lost a week debugging a subtle lein/maven classpath AOT bug.

[huahaiy]

You can still do lein new and away you go, today. That still works.

Many people still use lein for new projects, especially for larger ones. For small on-off thing, clojure command line is more convenient. So it is a good thing to have more choices.

[phtrivier]

Also, today, half the docs you find around are about lein, half are about tools.deps, and no one ever gets the full definition because they assume you know your way around. :shrug:, I guess ?