[hitchstory]

>Sometimes you need the unit before you can unit test.

Right. In those situations I TDD with an e2e or integration test.

I dont get why youd restrict yourself to doing TDD with just with low level unit tests.

[torben-friis]

I don't, but you agree that in that case the unit test comes after? That was the point I was arguing.

[hitchstory]

Not necessarily. On plenty of projects I have done 100% TDD and never written a single low level unit test.

The type of test is, in my mind, a completely different topic to red-green-refactor and for the decision about which one to write I follow a set of rules which is also unconnected.

TDD is just red-green-refactor. It works with any test.