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by jmclnx 488 days ago
My # 1 issue with wayland is it is Linux Specific, not protable.

I am hoping the *BSDs get together and keep Xorg maintained instead of having to port Linux crazyness into their systems.

9 comments

> My # 1 issue with wayland is it is Linux Specific, not protable.

Personally my #1 is just that stuff still don't work properly in a out-of-the-box Gnome+Wayland setup (on Arch). I still see weird things like a Firefox extension for making websites darker has a white line rendering through the pages when in use (probably something regarding aspect ratio?), some Electron apps like Obsidian sometimes have individual lines jittering up/down by 1-2 pixels (like it can't find the right/stable position), running nvidia-smi somehow introduces a 0.1 lag to seemingly my entire desktop, running it in a loop introduces that every run, and so on.

None of those issues happens with Xorg, and it just works without having set extra env vars for specific applications, or having to change the configuration just for Wayland to be used properly.

It seems to be less resource intensive, and smoother overall drawing, but all these issues make it kind of hard to start using daily over Xorg.

I know this doesn't help but those seem like GNOME issues not Wayland protocol issues. Using Nvidia also probably doesn't improve the odds.
Yeah, you're probably right. I guess as I'm just an end-user who don't mind the internals that much, I'm just seeing how Xorg/Wayland work in the context of Gnome, so when I use Gnome+Xorg, everything works while using Gnome+Wayland leads to lots of stuff broken, so I associate the broken stuff with Wayland, although it could very well be the problem of how Gnome uses Wayland.

Although I'm not sure how Gnome affects how Firefox Extensions work, or how Electron applications render, I also don't know enough about the internals to say that's because of Gnome or Wayland.

Agreed. I am using Sway; it just works (tm).
its not even just arch linux. you can literally buy a PC from anyone who sells ubuntu 24.04 and you still cant properly install (and have them work out of the box) snap store items like shutter.
> My # 1 issue with wayland is it is Linux Specific, not protable.

Of course it's portable. Your complaint that it hasn't been ported a lot of places may be well-placed, but it's a different complaint.

> I am hoping the *BSDs get together and keep Xorg maintained instead of having to port Linux crazyness into their systems.

"Foo is crazy and isn't ported – I therefore hope that people don't port crazy foo". What?

FreeBSD already ported it, I don't know a about the rest. Why do you think it's particularly tied to Linux?
Because to get it working, something like udev, edev, libinput needs to be brought over, polluting a clean system. Some quotes from:

https://xenocara.org/Wayland_on_OpenBSD.html

>Input is more complex to get working since Wayland applications expect Linux input model with udev, evdev and libinput.

>seatd and libseat provide support for non-systemd based systems. A basic port to OpenBSD/wscons is needed

So Wayland requires Linux specific items to be ported to BSD. Maybe FreeBSD did all that work themselves. Was that work accepted into upstream ? Based on how Linux works these days, I doubt it. So maybe each new Wayland Release will need to be patched for FreeBSD.

That patching is nothing new. It's pretty automated on FreeBSD. It has a ports system that does just that.

I don't think udev is ported though. Some linuxisms are, like dbus because several desktops need it. But FreeBSD has its own udev alternative called devd. Wayland is probably configured to just use that.

The compositor needs to talk to the hardware using kernel API and there's a bit of plumbing required, like for OpenGL / Vulkan apps to get a context under Wayland. Which isn't really "particularly" tied.
Is it Linux specific?

Its been ported to FreeBSD.

Would it be more true to say Wayland on *BSDs lags Wayland on Linux? Its not tied to Linux the way systemd is, right?

Did I hear Windows subsystem for Wayland?
I'm on FreeBSD and they have Wayland. I'm not using it yet, but it does have it and support is being improved. It's not as stable yet as X11 though.
The Wayland library has upstream support for FreeBSD and OpenBSD. Some compositors also have upstream support for these.
Does anyone really use an X GUI on BSD?
Yes. Lots of people do. There are even BSD OSs that primarily target desktop use, such as DragonflyBSD.
How does "lots" quantify, though? There are billions of desktop Windows users. There are tens of millions of desktop Linux users. I expect desktop BSD to go beyond the thousands, but does it reach the hundreds of thousands?

I've always felt like from a purely user perspective desktop BSD doesn't really distinguish itself from Linux. The software stack is essentially the same, and they're both FLOSS so that's not a reason to switch either. Maybe I'm wrong, but the Linux/BSD choice looks a lot less relevant than the Windows/Linux choice.

So if people use desktop BSD because it essentially gives them slightly fuzzier feelings, and they are essentially a rounding error in their user base, is it really fair to criticize Linux developers for not focusing on portability? You can only spend your time once, so do you use it to work on something benefiting your tens of millions of existing Linux users, or something benefiting your thousands of potential BSD users?

Does it matter?

The question was if anyone uses BSD as a desktop and the answer is yes people do.

> You can only spend your time once, so do you use it to work on something benefiting your tens of millions of existing Linux users, or something benefiting your thousands of potential BSD users?

I couldn’t care less how the Wayland devs decided to prioritise their time. But it is worth pointing out that Wayland was architected from the ground up to be agnostic. That’s why it’s the polar opposite to the the “batteries included” design of X.

And as others have pointed out, Wayland is available for some BSD already.

Oh yes. It's my daily driver. KDE on FreeBSD (with X11 stack still)
It is good to occasionaly display windows from a remote linux onto a macbook client. I wouldnt say I use it regularly but it certainly helps.
I use sway, so no.