[adev_]

The Carlos Ghosn story is really one of the biggest cliffhanger in automotive history.

When Ghosn got arrested, the Alliance Renault-Nissan was shredded to pieces. Many in Europe (including myself) were betting on a Nissan survival and a quick death of Renault.

Renault that was the sick dog of the French automotive industry for decades. Mainly due to bad business decisions and a lot of debt dating from before the arrival of Carlos Ghosn. With Ghosn in exile and no clear successor: there were very little optimism in Europe about the survival of Renault.

But ironically: that could not be farther from the Truth.

Renault get away with a pretty well executed electrification. It is now hyped and healthy.

Several models have been acclaimed by critics [1] and are even qualified as 'sexy' by the younger generation. It also sells well: The Megan EV sells well, so does the R5 and the Scenic. Renault even outsells Stellantis in Europe[2]: Something that did not happen for decades.

And near to that Nissan, the big one in the story, seems to go from bad to worst.

Nissan's stocks are going straight to the ground and with pretty worrying financial status. Nissan seems stucked with a conservative Japanese high level management unable to understand nor execute the changes the brand need. They completely miss the electrification: The leaf is outdated, the Ariya arrived late and full of problems[3]. And the rest of the product ranges do not sell well at all outside of Japan.

Nissan need urgently help, and pretty much nobody want to work with them in Japan.

This is again one of this twist of fate that only the automotive world is able to provide.

[1]: https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/renault/megane-e-tech-el...

[2] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/europe...

[3]: https://www.ariyaforums.com/threads/so-many-issues-with-less...

[antonkochubey]

Renault's ICE engines are also known to be extremely reliable amongst central and southern europe's taxi drivers (who put insane mileage on them). Unlike other French marques - Peugeot and Citroen - who are in the "stay away" category amongst people who drive 40,000+ km/year

[adev_]

> Renault's ICE engines are also known to be extremely reliable amongst central and southern europe's taxi drivers (who put insane mileage on them). Unlike other French marques - Peugeot and Citroen - who are in the "stay away" category amongst people who drive 40,000+ km/year

Yes. This is also quite a twist of fate because 10-15y ago it was exactly the opposite.

Renault had the reputation of poor reliability with a lot of problems regarding electronics while the old TUs engines from PSA (now Stellantis) where rocks solid monsters you could bring to 300k km without a swet. Many of them are still alive and way over 1M km in northern Africa.

[forgotoldacc]

> They completely miss the electrification

This applies to all Japanese car companies now. They've basically told China, "Please, take the loyal market we've built up these past 40 years. We don't need or want it. We want to die."

It makes no sense.

They're betting on ICE vehicles losing no demand and on "clean" hydrogen completely displacing all demand for electric vehicles entirely.

And a quick rundown on how clean hydrogen energy works in Japan: they burn coal or petroleum to make liquid hydrogen that will replace petroleum-burning vehicles. So instead of using fuel directly, they burn stable fuel that can be used in most cars to make unstable fuel that can't be used in any cars. Smart.

[adev_]

> They've basically told China, "Please, take the loyal market we've built up these past 40 years. We don't need or want it. We want to die."

It is more complicated than that.

The Chinese government in the last decade made the life of foreign automotive brand un-manageable. Most of them (outside of the luxury market) are now getting out.

They enforces rules that are clearly designed for IP leaks and takeover. For instance: For every vehicule sold in China by Toyota and others, the source of the software need to be sent to the Chinese authorities.

This is not a market that the Japanese want to stay in: They know they are playing against someone that cheats with the rules.

[forgotoldacc]

What I was saying had absolutely nothing to do with the Chinese internal market. I'm talking about Chinese companies making EVs and exporting them, consuming a market Japan should've logically taken.

[taurknaut]

> cheats

All i see is competition. Companies cheat by relying on ip to begin with and it hurts the consumer.

[momo_hn2025]

any source or link to the specific regulation? in know localized data storage, cross-border assessments is a must, but don't know souce code is a must.

[adev_]

> any source or link to the specific regulation? in know localized data storage, cross-border assessments is a must

Toyota is well known to have an entire division in Toyota China dedicated to re-develop their stack just for the local market due to this exact reason.

[farseer]

Toyota has plug in hybrids from which I am guessing they would remove the ICE when they feel necessary. The rest of Japanese automakers might not make it. You have to understand that America has practically banned Chinese cars from entering the market and ICE is still big going forward in America.

[makeitdouble]

> It makes no sense.

I'm assuming you live in the US: how many US consumer companies could you cite that make product that are almost useless in the US ?

For instance, would you see Tesla make mainly cars that extremely well adapted to small and tortuous old european cities ? Or would you image Apple's next iPhone line to be fully revamped to only work with Felica NFC payments, dropping credit card and Apple Pay support ?

That is kind of how electric cars are positioned in Japan, and Toyota is a Japanese company. The market exists, but is marginal and not where the country is putting its weight on (I think you'll understand why nuclear energy in Japan much more controversial than in the US)