[Quarrelsome]

has anyone else encountered the Hindu nationalist perspective when discussing this? I've struggled to suggest this is a scientific reality when talking to some otherwise smart people about this and I suspect this is in part to their vulnerability to Hindu nationalist talking points which I assume tend to big up local ancestry instead of an ancestry that connects a lot of different peoples and religions together.

Just wondering if other people have experienced the same or have effective arguments to deal with the outright rejection I've previously faced. I like to think of these discoveries as great unifying ancestry many of us share, which I consider a positive thing, So it surprised me when I discovered an outright rejection of the thought.

[rsynnott]

The intersection of nationalism and archaeology can get _really_ weird, and depending on how deep in they are, well, you're probably not going to convince them. If nothing else, it's likely _emotionally_ important to them in a way that it probably isn't for you, the contrived nationalistic narrative being part of, essentially, a belief system.

For a particularly extreme example of this, see Great Zimbabwe, a ruined city in what is now Zimbabwe. When the country was Northern Rhodesia (a white minority ultra-nationalist breakaway state, somewhat like apartheid South Africa but moreso), any serious discussion of the nature of the site was essentially _illegal_ there, because its existence challenged the official narrative (the government insisted that it could not have been built by black people).

[clarionbell]

It wasn't illegal. The official interpretation however, was that it was not built by locals. Any other opinion was considered "fringe". Which was ironic. Since local origin of these buildings was pretty much consensus among historians before Rhodesia was even a thing.

Then again. Rhodesia didn't last very long. And nobody outside cared much what they thought.

[spacebanana7]

> The intersection of nationalism and archaeology can get _really_ weird, and depending on how deep in they are

A lot of political mythology is based on a group of people being either ethnically homogeneous or ethnically non-homogeneous.

For example a lot of Nazi ideology would've been undermined if it could've been shown that Germans were ethnically non-homogeneous. However it would've been supported if it could've been shown that other groups of people like WW1 German Army deserters were ethnically homogeneous. Or undermined again if there were non-German ethnic homogeneity in WW1 heroes who participated in the German army.

[never_inline]

Both nationalist side and the other side (AIT/AMT) take this very emotionally.

Recently NCERT books were edited indicating that the Rig-vedic people were a continuation of Harappans.

On the other hand, the popular science and journalism has not done any favours by framing the IE studies as "The Aryans brought the Vedas with them from Europe", which is wrong at so many levels. The AMT/AIT was also weaponized by certain political elements in India to proliferate harassment against the Brahmins of Tamil Nadu. So it's kind of understandable why some Indians get defensive about this. But for the most part it's the same blind nationalistic spirit by which boomers claim all science was invented by Indians. Given that most Hindus today won't even know what's there in the Veda which is markedly different from the contemporary Hindu religion, that much attachment to the very small part of ancestry is not required.

Sensitive fields like IE studies should be kept to serious circles and not dumbed down to the level layman whose faith in his Gods or respect towards other humans will be changed by suggesting that people moved around and fought a lot 4000 years ago.

[biorach]

> popular science and journalism has not done any favours by framing the IE studies as "The Aryans brought the Vedas with them from Europe",

I don't believe any reputable journalist or popular science publication has pushed that view in recent decades. Please post links if you have them

[never_inline]

How do you define "reputable"? People don't only read reputable media.

If you take left leaning publications in English, I bet you can still find some subtle variation of this written by average journalist with only pop-sci level understanding of the topic.

The current gen of journalists and teachers have learned from previous gen of books and media, which obviously oversimplified this and also had various political agendas.

[biorach]

So.. No links eh?

[never_inline]

Sir, I am not going to keep links whenever I see this rhetoric in some online news site or local newspaper.

[biorach]

Because you didn't see this rhetoric because you're talking shit

[saran945]

“The AMT/AIT was also weaponized by certain political elements in India to proliferate harassment against the Brahmins of Tamil Nadu”

I was born and raised in Tamil Nadu, having lived there for over two decades. In my experience, I have not witnessed any widespread harassment specifically targeting Brahmins. While isolated incidents may exist—just as they do for various communities across all states—there is no substantial evidence to suggest a systemic issue. Could you provide concrete examples, statistics, or credible sources to substantiate this claim ?

[ho2423o4j2334]

> "The Aryans brought the Vedas with them from Europe",

That's still the theory, except it's not politically correct to say it out loud. There was an idiot re-tweeted by the VP, who claimed "Buddha was Blonde with Blue-eyes; so was Pāṇinī". You might claim he's an idiot and "AMT is a sophisticated theory you pleb", but it actually is not. As we speak, Indologists like Bronkhorst, Beckwith and many others in EBT are scheming all sorts theories, which give wind to the old-Nazi ideas of "(early) Buddhism" being close to the early "Aryan religion", by claiming that the Shakyamuni was a remnant of original Steppe clans.

The way West frames/manipulates History (based on so little evidence) is deeply violent, and has roots in Xtianity and its violence. This is precisely the issue with this racial theory from the backdoor, and anyone with any shred of morality/ethics should stand with India, and for the indegeneity of its culture, civilization and languages.

[never_inline]

What you're picking on is the exact kind of laymen with a civilizational inferiority complex I am advocating to gatekeep this subject from.

On the Indian side we have fair share of people who blabber that, (Indra forbid), all IE languages took birth from Sanskrit, or on the other side of political spectrum, that Buddhism predates the Veda.

[ConspiracyFact]

>The way West frames/manipulates History (based on so little evidence) is deeply violent

Violence is the use of physical force to coerce or to cause harm. The "way [someone] frames [something]" can't be anywhere close to "violent".

[ConspiracyFact]

>This is precisely the issue with this racial theory from the backdoor, and anyone with any shred of morality/ethics should stand with India, and for the indegeneity of its culture, civilization and languages.

I don't know the facts, but it sounds to me like there's no evidence that could convince you to accept the position opposite yours.