[tluyben2]

I know this sounds harsh, but from my own experience with friends and family (2 family members, 6 friends gone) committing suicide this was MANY years in the making; far before he had kids. That makes it a real shame; like many (most!) people, he shouldn't have had kids in the first place. I feel very sorry for them and his wife, this shouldn't have happened. And most likely could've been prevented. Especially with the kids in mind, this is a tough one.

Edit: changed wording out of respect

[andyjohnson0]

When someone dies in circumstances like this the people near to them are going to be very traumatised. Out of respect for them, you should keep your opinions to yourself. Using words like "unforgivable", "coward", and "duty" in the context of someone you appear not to have known is inappropriate and offensive.

[tluyben2]

That's your opinion. I don't think other people who are contemplating the same thing are helped by me (or anyone else) keeping things to myself.

Edit: changed my wording. I'm Dutch, we don't beat around the bush, but you have a point, I can say it differently. I will use those words for the people I did know. I do think that people should talk more; it is just strange how this happens if you actually HAVE people who care about you around you.

[exolab]

I don't think other people in similar situations are helped by you period.

[jaybill]

Being Dutch is not an excuse for saying terrible things about who should and should not have children. People are suffering. Have some respect.

[erre]

I'm very glad to realise the two of you have never fought hard depression. Rest assured that he considered his children. It's not a rational decision.

[tluyben2]

I know it isn't. That's not what i'm saying. He decided to have kids so he has to do anything he can, including any help from any medical office in the world to go on and be there for his kids. If that all fails, sure. But I bet he didn't do that. Like I said; I know kind of a lot of people who did the same thing; you didn't notice anything and most of them NEVER went to a doctor even once about it. I don't know the details of course, maybe he did. One of the suicides I know was a mother of my then girlfriend; she went in and out of clinics (lock up!) and couldn't be cured; she had everything from electroshocks to all anti-depressants; that was understandable. If you cannot live you cannot live. But at least 6 of the 8 I knew intimate NEVER sought help, asked a doctor or showed ANY signs; they were 'happy and smiling' one day, next day hanging from the ceiling. You cannot tell me that's ok if you have kids (or a mother). It's not rational, but it takes YEARS to form a 'tumor' like that and there are definitely enough rational times during that period you could seek help. And not have kids, because you do know you have this tendency.

Edit: I am pro euthanasia, but it should be discussed; most cases are fixable, the ones which aren't well aren't.

@erre below (I cannot reply): we agree, the moment itself definitely not rational (that's probably why so many people actually change their minds during the fall from the Golden Gate; there is a good documentary about that), however during the years and years of getting to that point there are rational moments. Your friend went to seek help ; that was rational. It does not have to be continues; it's just sad to see how many people do this without ANYONE actually knowing they even had anything like that on their minds. My cousin was an upbeat, happy guy; he was always the most cheerful and nicest person you could have around. He had tons of girls around him and a steady girlfriend. He went for a drive, cheerful as ever, from his house, left a note + a tape for the funeral. No-one had a clue. A forest ranger found him in his car. That's just weak, really, especially considering his note explained the years he spent coping with this and that he couldn't take it. The moment itself was not rational by any means, however the YEARS before and the show he put up was.

[erre]

Again, you're being rational. I completely agree with you.

Except that I have close contact with someone who suffers from depression, and I know it's very hard. She sought help, and is much better. But, during crises, none of this matters. You cannot argue with them, try to get them to see reason. Cause and effect just don't get through to them.

I know it's exasperating. My initial reaction was to get angry, to tell her the same "you know this and that", until I realised it was completely beyond her control. I'm very, very happy she got better, but I fully realise that if she had jumped out of a window at some point, it would not have been a rational decision; it would not have been "irresponsible" (the concept wouldn't even apply); and she would have sees absolutely no other course of action she would have been capable of having taken. It's very sad, and very hard to deal with.

[tluyben2]

Reply link just appeared; we agree, the moment itself definitely not rational (that's probably why so many people actually change their minds during the fall from the Golden Gate; there is a good documentary about that), however during the years and years of getting to that point there are rational moments. Your friend went to seek help ; that was rational. It does not have to be continues; it's just sad to see how many people do this without ANYONE actually knowing they even had anything like that on their minds. My cousin was an upbeat, happy guy; he was always the most cheerful and nicest person you could have around. He had tons of girls around him and a steady girlfriend. He went for a drive, cheerful as ever, from his house, left a note + a tape for the funeral. No-one had a clue. A forest ranger found him in his car. That's just weak, really, especially considering his note explained the years he spent coping with this and that he couldn't take it. The moment itself was not rational by any means, however the YEARS before and the show he put up was.

[mikeash]

One bit of trouble (of many) is that there's tremendous pressure to act happy even if you're not. People rarely react well when you act the way you feel, if you're feeling like that. People often take it personally. They get upset at you for not being happy. They think they've done something to make you unhappy. They feel at fault, even though they're not. It's easier to put up an act than just be yourself.

I think a lot of this comes down to a very poor understanding of mental illness in the general population. Nobody has a problem if you can't play frisbee with your friends because you broke your legs. But if you don't want to play frisbee with your friends because you brain is sick, their frame of mind is completely different. They're not thinking of it as a disease, with your mental state being just as much of an uncontrollable symptom as the inability to run is out of the control of the person with the broken leg.

We need to better educate people on this stuff. I'm sure that discussions like this help, as long as they don't go off the rails into misinformation.

[saraid216]

Well, like any other disease, some of us can't afford the time or money to get it diagnosed and treated. We just have to keep going despite it, and ignoring the reality that it's a disease is helpful in this respect.