[skepticATX]

Not a lawyer, but it would seem that Elon and Doge employees are exposing themselves up to significant legal liability here. Maybe Trump pardons Elon (if they don't fall out before then), but is he going to pardon everyone who has a hand in this? And it seems likely that state crimes are being committed as well. The president may have broad immunity, but Elon does not.

[dboreham]

Great comment in 2021 but today we know laws are not enforced against powerful people and their lackeys.

[freeone3000]

He does if the President says he does! That’s the beauty of a pardon. There’s not a limit, as many people can be pardoned as Mr. Trump wants.

And you can’t arrest the president because he’s immune from prosecution for official acts: pardoning is an enumerated constitutional power!

So what’s left is impeachment for the president and congress does not want to do this.

And none of that will fall on Musk or DOGE. The government has made itself unable to prevent this.

[rsynnott]

> That’s the beauty of a pardon. There’s not a limit, as many people can be pardoned as Mr. Trump wants.

It's really quite an odd power; very few developed democracies have a _personal_ pardon power today (some kind of vaguely pretend to; in the UK pardons are done by the monarch _at the direction of the government_, say). I think the US just stuck it on the presidency because at the time of independence the president was kind of a stand-in for the monarch, and the British monarchy had it at the time. The US then failed to get rid of it when everyone else did, instead relying on norms and basically on everyone behaving themselves to regulate it.

[thesuperbigfrog]

So is there a legal way to stop what is happening?

If the current legal framework were software, I would say that this is an exploit chain that gives root access to the government / country.

If there is not legal way to stop it, what is the alternative?

[freeone3000]

Ideally, not electing a person who would abuse those powers. Secondarily, the “immune from prosecution” was a supreme court decision as a result of the events of January 6th, so the 2024 election was a pretty important one.

The current legal method available now is an impeachment process, iterated until we have a president who values societal norms and stable government. (Depending on how you feel about JD Vance not also pulling this shit.)

Currently 28 of the 51 republicans in the Senate are up for re-election in November of 2026; this is a possibility for a makeup change, but a remote one.

It appears a large enough percentage of americans want this that there’s no real possibility of changing course at this point; even the assassination attempts have failed. Understand that over 40% of americans do want what is happening now, as backed up by current polling. Never comply in advance, do not follow illegal orders, and make good friends with your neighbours.

[prawn]

I think one aspect not covered in your comment is whether or not all voters are getting an accurate representation of what's happening. If what they read/see just confirms their favoured view, it might be hard to say with confidence that any portion of the population do want what is actually happening at any given point.

Or separately, whether they feel very strongly about some things that are happening, enough to overlook other things that they'd likely disagree with but don't understand or care about as much.

[Filligree]

The legal way to stop it is impeachment. Full stop. Nothing else can do with a president that’s gone this far rogue; the courts can at best slow him down, but at worst nothing stops Trump from ignoring them.

[PaulDavisThe1st]

You missed state-level action. The president cannot intervene in such matters (at least not in any legal, direct sense).

[timbit42]

I expect Trump to ignore Biden's presidential pardons in the near future.

[anigbrowl]

Same. The rationale for doing so doesn't have to stand up, it just needs to be a soundbite that is easy for MAGA supporters to remember and repeat.

[jordanpg]

Also, pardons are for criminal liability. They do not absolve you of civil liability (i.e., they can still be sued).

[TrackerFF]

So here's what we've seen:

- Acting Trump lackeys will simply ignore any court orders that block the EOs that Trump has issued.

- Congress isn't doing anything.

- In all likelihood, DOJ isn't going to enforce anything, so long they're aligned with Trump.

- Should some lowly law-enforcement officer decide to play hero, and arrest anyone that any federal judge issues an arrest on, I'd fully expect them to be removed, or meet resistance from any bodyguards/protection that the DOGE boys will receive.

- Even if anyone decides to pursue, Trump can issue pre-emptive pardons for all past federal crimes.

It is sort of a crisis, because the few checks and balances that were put in place, simply aren't functioning.

[Naklin]

I mean, with the extreme politicization of DOJ and FBI already under way by Trump and his cronies, and the dismantling of safeguards like inspector generals there's literally no chance that these people get indicted or even investigated under this administration.

> is he going to pardon everyone who has a hand in this?

How can anyone have any doubts after the jan 6 pardons?

[skepticATX]

Clearly it's not happening tomorrow, but eventually Democrats (and maybe even Republicans who want to uphold the constitution!) will be in the majority.

[apothegm]

That makes the big assumption that we’ll ever have free and fair elections here again.

[throw16180339]

Demographic changes also make it much harder for the Democrats to win in the future (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/democrats-future-crisi...).

[klooney]

We need to shut down immigration so we don't create an emerging Republican majority, or something. Didn't someone write a book about this

[throw16180339]

The Culture Transplant by Garett Jones

[jordanpg]

Yep. For all of these sensational headlines we're seeing recently, we need to keep in mind that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg of what's happening, and that we are seeing exactly nothing of what's happening behind closed doors. In fact, the fiascoes may be specifically intended to keep the public's eye off the ball.

I would be very surprised to learn that there are not teams working in every state to weaken the integrity of the electoral process.

[anigbrowl]

If that were the case then no dictatorship anywhere would ever get embedded. Contrary to the widespread cultural belief in the US, people everywhere like freedom and integrity in public life; they're just not as individualistic about it, because most countries were settled many centuries earlier, and there is not an ethos of pioneering based on the idea of infinite free land and resources.

The problem with dictatorship is that of first-mover advantage; once a dictatorship becomes embedded it's hard to dislodge. There's de facto control of the legal, electoral, and cultural infrastructure which the regime can use to (ostensibly) re-legitimize itself every few years, while in the meantime suppressing dissent through violence and fear. That would be very much in line with the stated goals and actions of the administration so far. And I don't mean this hyperbolically; Trump stated that he would be a dictator on day one, and while his supporters brushed this off as a joke his autocratic behavior since entering office is wholly consistent with that.

Barring abrupt reversals in the next month or two, I think this is going to become a long-term situation, and there is simply no way the US can go back to two party pendulum politics after this. It would be like getting out of hospital after a stroke or a heart attack and heading straight back to an all-you-can-eat steakhouse.

[tstrimple]

The main problem is the Democratic Party has proven itself to be absolutely useless at preventing this sort of perversion of our systems. They are too happy to rely on process, decorum and the status quo to build defenses into our systems. Democrats still pretend like it’s the late 90’s / early 00’s political climate where boring neoliberals can beat boring conservatives reliably and that’s the only defense our nation needs. During my lifetime the only persistent democratic plan is to just not lose elections ever and things will be fine. It’s frankly amazing how much awful shit conservatives are able to inflict on the country while being in the minority and how little liberals are willing do with a majority. It all feels very performative from democrats which I guess makes sense since they have mostly the same donors to appease as the conservatives do.