[DustinBrett]

I feel like I am taking crazy pills that other devs don't feel this way. How bad are the coders that they think these AI's are giving them super powers. The PR's with AI code are so obvious and when you ask the devs why, they don't even know. They just say, well the AI picked this, as if that means something in and of itself.

[doix]

AI gives super powers because it saves you an insane amount of typing. I used to be a vim fanatic, I was very efficient but whenever I changed language there was a period where I had to spend getting efficient. Setup some new snippets for boilerplate, maybe tweak some LSP settings, save some new macros.

Now in cursor I just write "extract this block of code into its own function and set up the unit tests" and it does it, with no configuration from my part. Before I'd have a snippet for the unit test boilerplate for that specific project, I'd have to figure out the mocks mysel, etc.

Yes, if you use AI to just generate new code blindly and check it in without no understanding, you end up with garbage. But those people were most likely copy pasting from SO before AI, AI just made them faster.

[abenga]

AI saves you an insane amount of typing, but adds an insane amount of reading, which is strictly harder than typing (at least for me).

[anonzzzies]

Hmm, that is interesting; reading is harder? You have to read a lot of code anyway right? From team members, examples, 3rd party code/libraries? Through the decades of programming at least I became very proficient and rapidly spotting 'fishy' code and generally understanding code written by others. AI coding is nice because it is, for me, the opposite of what you have; reading the code it generates is much faster than writing it myself even though I am fast at writing it; not that fast.

I have said it here before, because I would love to see some videos of HNers who complain AI gives them crap as we are getting amazing results on large and complex projects... We treat AI code the same as human code, we read it and recommend or implement fixes.

[swiftcoder]

> Hmm, that is interesting; reading is harder?

Much, much harder. Sure, you can skim large volumes of code very quickly. But the type of close reading that is required to spot logic bugs in the small is quite taxing - which is the reason that we generally don't expect code review processes to catch trivial errors, and instead invest in testing.

[anonzzzies]

But we are not talking about large volumes of code here; we are talking about; LLM generates something, you check it and close read it to spot logic bugs and either fix yourself, ask the LLM or approve. It is very puzzling to me how this is more work/taxing than writing it yourself unless for very specific examples;

Examples from every day reality in my company; writing 1000s of lines of react frontend code is all LLM (in very little time) and reviews catch all the issues while the database implementation we are working on we spend sometimes one hour on a few lines and the LLM suggest things but they never help. Reviewing such a little bit of code has no use as it's the result of testing a LOT of scenarios to get the most performance out in the real world (across different environments/settings). However, almost everyone in the world is working on (similar issues like) the former, not the latter, so...

[swiftcoder]

> writing 1000s of lines of react frontend code

Maybe we just located the actual problem in this scenario.

[ninetyninenine]

You should use testing and a debugger for this. Don’t just read code, run it and step through it and observe code as it mutates state.

[swiftcoder]

I think this is great advice for folks who work on software that is well enough contained enough that you can run the entire thing on your dev machine, and it happens to be written in the same language/runtime throughout.

Unfortunately I've made some career choices that mean I've very rarely been in that position - weird mobile hardware dependencies and/or massive clouds of micro services both render this technique pretty complicated to employ in practice.

[jajko]

When you type the code, you definitely think about it, deepening your mental model of the problem, stopping and going back and changing things.

Reading is massively passive, and in fact much more mentally tiring if whole reading is in detective mode 'now where the f*ck are some hidden issues now'. Sure, if your codebase is 90% massive boilerplate then I can see quickly generated code saves a lot of time, but such scenarios were normally easy to tackle before LLMs came. Or at least those I've encountered in past few decades.

Do you like debugging by just tracing the code with your eyes, or actually working on it with data and test code? I've never seen effective use of such regardless of seniority. But I've seen in past months wild claims about magic of LLMs that were mostly un-reproduceable by others, and when folks were asked for details they went silent.

[dagss]

Depends ofc on the complexity of the area, but... reading someones code to me feels a bit like being given a 2D picture of a machine, then having to piece together a 3D model in my head from a single 2D photo from one projection of the machine. Then figuring out if the machine will work.

When I write code, the hard part is already done -- the mental model behind the program is already in my head and and I simply dump it to keyboard. (At least for me typing speed has never been relevant as a limiting factor)

But I read code I have to reassemble the mental model "behind" it in my head from the output artifact of the thought processes.

Of course one needs to read code of co-workers and libraries -- but it is more draining, at least for me. Skimming it is fast but reading it thoroughly enough to find bugs by reading requires making the full mental model of the code which takes more mental effort for me at least.

There is a huge difference in how I read code from trusted experienced coworkers and juniors though. AI falls in the latter category.

(AI is still saving me a lot of time. Just saying I agree a lot that writing is easier than reading still.)

[anonzzzies]

Running code in your head is another issue that AI won't solve (yet); we had different people/scientists working on this; the most famous person there being Brett Victor, but also Jonathan Edwards [0] and Chris Granger (lighttable). I find the example in [0] the best; you are sitting there with your very logically weak brain trying to think wtf will this code do while there is a very powerful computer next to you that can tell you. But doesn't. And yet, we are mostly restricted to first think out the code to at least some extent before we can see it in action, same for the AI.

[0] https://vimeo.com/140738254

[ninetyninenine]

Don’t run code in your head. Run it in reality and step through it with a debugger.

[pineaux]

You mean like a blueprint of a machine? Because that is exactly how machines are usually presented in official documentation. To me the skill of understanding how "2d/code" translates to "3d/program execution" is exactly the skill that sets amateurs apart from pros, saying that, I consider myself an amateur in code and a professional in mechanical design.

[abenga]

"In the small", it's easy to read code. This code computes this value, and writes it there, etc. The harder part is answering why it does what it does, which is harder for code someone else wrote. I think it is worthwhile expending this effort for code review, design review, or understanding a library. Not for code that I allegedly wrote. Especially weeks removed, loading code I wrote into "working memory" to fix issues or add features is much much easier than code I didn't write.

[anonzzzies]

> The harder part is answering why it does what it does, which is harder for code someone else wrote.

That's a vital part of writing software though.

[abenga]

True. I will save effort by only expending it when needed (when I need to review my coworkers' code, legacy code, or libraries).

[petesergeant]

Here is a chat transcript from today, I don't know if it'll be interesting to you. You can't see the canvas it's building the code in: https://chatgpt.com/share/67a07afe-3e10-8004-a5ea-cc78676fb6...

Yes, I have to read what it writes, and towards the end it gets slow and starts making dumb mistakes (always; there's some magically bad length at which it always starts to fumble), but I feel like I got the advantages of pairing out of it without actually needing to sit next to another human? I'll finish the script off myself and review it.

I don't know if I've saved actual _time_ here, but I've definitely saved some mental effort on a menial script I didn't actually want to write, that I can use for some of the considerably more difficult problems I'll need to solve later today. I wouldn't let it near anything where I didn't understand what every single line of code it wrote was doing, because it does make odd choices, but I'll probably use it again to do something tomorrow. If it needs to be part of a bigger codebase, I'll give it the type-defs from elsewhere in the codebase to start with, or tell it it can assume a certain function exists

[WalterBright]

> AI gives super powers because it saves you an insane amount of typing.

I must be very different, as very little of my coding time is spent typing.

[v20]

I think that spending a lot of time typing is likely an architectural problem. But I do see how AI tools can be used for "oneshot" code where pondering maintainability and structure is wasted time.

[doix]

For me, getting what's in my head out onto the screen as fast as possible increases my productivity immensely.

Maybe it's because I'm used to working with constant interruptions, but until what I want is on the screen, I can't start thinking about the next thing. E.g. if I'm making a new class, I'm not thinking about the implementation of the inner functions until I've got the skeleton of the class in place. The faster I get each stage done, the faster I work.

It's why I devoted a lot of time getting efficient at vim, setting up snippets for my languages, etc. AI is the next stage of that in my mind.

Maybe you can keep thinking about next steps while stuff is "solved" in your head but not on the screen. It also depends on the type of work you're doing. I've spent many hours to delete a few lines and change one, obviously AI doesn't help there.

[sampullman]

It's the same for me if I'm working on something unique or interesting, or a new technology.

Some kinds of coding require very little thinking, though. Converting a design to frontend interface or implementing a CRUD backend are mostly typing.

[girvo]

That's certainly the case for myself, too, though I've got roughly two fewer decades in this than yourself!

But typing throughput has never been my major bottleneck. Refactoring is basically never just straight code transforms, and most of my time is spent thinking, exploring or teaching these days

[swiftcoder]

> AI gives super powers because it saves you an insane amount of typing

I feel like I'm going a little bit more insane whenever folks say this, because one of the primary roles of a software engineer is to develop tools and abstractions to reduce or eliminate boilerplate.

What kind of software are you writing, where generating boilerplate is the limiting factor (and why haven't you fixed that)?

[anonzzzies]

> because one of the primary roles of a software engineer is to develop tools and abstractions to reduce or eliminate boilerplate.

Is it? Says who? Not only do I see entire clans of folk appearing who say ; DRY sucks, just copy/paste, it's easier to read and less prone to break multiple things with one fix vs abstractions that keep functionality restricted to one location, but also; most programmers are there to implement crap their bosses say, that crap almost never includes 'create tools & abstractions' to get there.

I agree with you actually, BUT this is really not what by far most people working in programming believe one of their (primary) roles entail.

[yoyohello13]

See THIS is a usage that makes sense to me. Using AI to manipulate existing code like this is great. I save a ton of time by pasting in a json response and saying something like “turn this into Data classes” makes api work so fast. On the other hand I really don’t understand devs that say they are using AI for ALL their code.

[mewpmewp2]

Copilot kind of auto completes exactly what I want most of the time. When I want something bigger I will ask Claude to give me that, but I always know what I am going to get, and I could have written it myself, it would have just taken tons of typing. I feel like I am kind of an orchestrator of sorts.

[weebull]

So if you were to do a transformation like that you'd cut the code and paste it into a new function. Then you'd modify that function to make the abstraction work. An LLM will rewrite the code in the new form. It's not cut/paste/edit. It's a rewrite every time with the old code as reference.

Each rewrite is a chance to add subtle bugs, so I take issue with the description of LLMs "working on existing code". They don't use text editors to manipulate code like we do (although it might be interesting if they did) and so will have different issues.

[yoyohello13]

> It's a rewrite every time with the old code as reference.

As far as I'm aware, tools like Aider don't do this, it does targeted changes.

The way I do it "copy/paste into chat interface", I just have the relevant context and just change the parts required.

[porridgeraisin]

> vim > LLM

I use both :)

Vim has a way to run shell programs with your selection as standard input as you'd know, and it will replace the selection with stdout.

So I type in my prompt e.g "mock js object array with 10 items each having name age and address" do `V!ollama run whatever` for example and it will fill it in there.

Now this is blocking and I have a hacky way to run it async and fill it in based on marks later in my vimrc. Neovim really since I use jobstart().

This also works with lots of other stuff, like quick code/mock generation e.g sometimes instead of asking an LLM I just write javascript/python inline and `vap!node`/python on it.

[DustinBrett]

I do agree with the filling in of text, but only when the patterns are clear. Any kind of thinking on logic or using libraries I find it still leads me astray every time.

[linsomniac]

>I feel like I am taking crazy pills that other devs don't feel this way.

Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe you are.

For example, this weekend I was working on something where I needed to decode a Rails v3 session cookie in Python. I know, roughly, nothing about Rails. In less than 5 minutes ChatGPT gave me some code that took me around 10 minutes to get working.

Without ChatGPT I could have easily spent a couple hours putzing around with tracking down old Rails documentation, possibly involving reading old Rails code and grepping around to find where sessions were generated, hunting for helper libraries, some deadends while I tried to intuit a solution ("Ok, this looks like it's base64 encoded, but base64 decoding kind of works but produces an error. It looks like there's some garbage at the end. Oh, that's a signature, I wonder how it's signed...")

Instead, I asked for an overview of Rails session cookies, a fairly simple question about decoding a Rails session cookie, guided it to Rails v3 when I realized it was producing the wrong code (it was encrypting the cookie, but my cookies were not encrypted). It gave me 75 lines of code that took me ~15 minutes to get working.

This is a "spare time" project that I've wanted to do for over 5 years. Quite simply, if I had to spend hours fiddling around with it, I probably wouldn't have done it; it's not at the top of my todo list (hence, spare time project).

I don't understand how people don't see that AI can give them "superpowers" by leveraging a developers least productive time into providing their highest value.

[grayhatter]

> I don't understand how people don't see that AI can give them "superpowers" by leveraging a developers least productive time into providing their highest value.

I'm unwilling to write code^1 that's not correct, or at least as correct as I'm able to make it. The single most frustrating thing in my daily life is dealing with the PoC other devs cast into the world that has more bugs than features, because they can't tell it's awful. I've seen code I've written at my least productive, and it's awful and I'm often ashamed of it. It's the same quality as AI code. If AI code allows me to generate more code that I'm ashamed of, when I'm otherwise too tired myself to write code, how is that actually a good thing?

I get standards for exclusively personal toy projects, and stuff you want others to be able to use are different. But it doesn't add value to the world if you ship code someone else needs to fix.

^1 I guess I should say commit/ship instead, I write plenty of trash before fixing it.

[linsomniac]

Have you tried asking LLMs to clean up your code, making it more obvious, adding test harnesses, adding type hints or argument documentation, then reviewing it and finding out what you can learn from what it is suggesting?

Last year I took a piece of code from Ansible that was extremely difficult to understand. It took me the better part of a day to do a simple bug fix in it. So I reimplemented it, using several passes of having it implement it, reviewing it, asking LLMs to make it simpler, more obvious code. For your review: https://github.com/linsomniac/symbolicmode/blob/main/src/sym...

[jenscow]

> took me ~15 minutes to get working

You didn't blindly use it, you still used your expertise. You gave it a high quality prompt and you understood the reply enough to adjust it.

In other words, you used it correctly. It complimented your expertise, rather than replace it.

[linsomniac]

I think you're making my point for me. Isn't it "taking crazy pills" if you use it incorrectly, and then stand on that experience as proof that other devs are insane? :-)

[ookdatnog]

I agree with your assessment in the situation you describe: greenfielding a project with tools you are unfamiliar with. For me LLMs have worked best when my progress is hindered primarily by a lack of knowledge or familiarity. If I'm working on a project where I'm comfortable with my tools and APIs, they can still be useful from time to time but I wouldn't call it a "superpower", more like a regular productivity tool (less impactful than an IDE, I would say). Of course this comment could be outdated in a few months, but that's what it feels like to me in the here and now.

[linsomniac]

IMHO, still feels like a superpower in the editor when I type "def validate_session(sess" and it says "Are you wanting to type: `ion_data: dict[str, str]`?" Especially as the type annotations get more convoluted.

[fenomas]

Devs who don't feel that way aren't talking about the stuff you're talking about.

Look at it this way - a powerful debugger gives you superpowers. That doesn't mean it turns bad devs into good devs, or that devs with a powerful debugger never write bad code! If somebody says a powerful debugger gives them superpowers they're not claiming those things; they're claiming that it makes good devs even better.

[feoren]

The best debugger in the world would make me about 5% more efficient. That's about the percentage of my development time I spend going "WTF? Why is that happening?" That's the best possible improvement from the best possible debugger: about 5%.

The reason is that I almost always have a complete understanding of everything that is happening in all code that I write. Not because I have a mega-brain; only because "understanding everything that is happening all the time" becomes rather easy if all of your code is as simple as you can possibly make it, using clear interfaces, heavily leveraging the type system, keeping things immutable, dependency inversion, and aggressively attacking any unclear parts until you're satisfied with them. So debuggers are generally not involved. It's probably a couple times per week that I enter debug mode at all.

It sounds a little like saying "imagine the driving superpowers you could have if your car could perfectly avoid obstacles for you!" Okay, sure, that'd be life-saving sometimes, but the vast majority of the time, I'm not just randomly dodging obstacles. Planning ahead and paying attention kinda makes that moot.

[mewpmewp2]

Now imagine working on a 10+ years old codebase that 100s of developer hands have gone over. And several dependencies not being possible to even run locally because of being so out of date. Why work on that in the first place? Sometimes it pays really well.

[bluefirebrand]

I would absolutely not be comfortable trusting current AI to work on this sort of codebase and make meaningful improvements

[mewpmewp2]

Not AI, but we were talking about a debugger specifically.

[fenomas]

Please read things in context - my comment was about what people mean when they talk about a thing giving developers superpowers. I was not making a claim about how much you, personally, benefit from debuggers.

Also: I don't use debuggers much either. Is Superman's heat vision not a superpower because he rarely needs to melt things? :P

[adrianN]

It’s different if you work on a large legacy codebase where you have maybe a rough understanding of the high level architecture but nobody at the company has seen the code you’re working on in the last five years. There a debugger is often very helpful.

[anonzzzies]

That is your own code and only your libs then, no imports? Or you work in a language where imports are small (embedded?) so you know them all and maintain them all? Or maybe vanilla js/c without libs? Because import 1 npm and you have 100gb of crap deps you really don't understand which happens to work at moment t0 but at t1, when 1 npm updated, nothing works anymore and can't claim to understand it all as many/most people don't write 'simple code'.

[maxwellg]

You've never had to debug code that someone else wrote?

[feoren]

It's pretty uncommon. Most of my teammates' code is close to my standard -- I am referred to as the "technical lead" even though it's not an official title, but teammates do generally try to code to my standard, so it's pretty good code. If I'm doing a one-off bug fix or trying to understand what the code does, usually reading it is sufficient. If I'm taking some level of shared ownership of the code, I'm hopefully talking a lot with the person who wrote it. I'm very choosy about open-source libraries so it's rare that I need to dig into that code at all. I don't use any ecosystems like React that tempt you to just pull in random half-baked components for everything.

The conflux of events requiring me to debug someone else's code would be someone who wrote bad code without much oversight, then left the company, and there's no budget to fix their work properly. Not very common. Since I usually know what the code is supposed to be doing, such code can likely be rewritten properly in a small fraction of the original time.

[steelframe]

> They just say, well the AI picked this, as if that means something in and of itself.

In any other professional field that would be grounds for termination for incompetence. It's so weird that we seem to shrug off that kind of behavior so readily in tech.

[anonzzzies]

Nah, already had multiple cases of that; one with a lawyer at a big corp and some others; the story is not straight up 'ai said so' but more like: 'we use different online and offline tools to aid us in our work, sometimes the results are less than satisfactory, and we try to correct those cases'. It is the same response, just showing vulnerability; we are only human, even with our tools.

[bluefirebrand]

I think what you're saying is a bit idealistic. We like to think that people get terminated for incompetence but the reality is more complicated than that

I suspect people get away with saying "I don't know why that didn't work, I did what the computer told me to do" a lot more frequently than they get fired for it. "I did what the AI said" will be the natural extension of this

[eru]

Depending on what language you use and what domain your problem is in, current AIs can vary widely in how useful they are.

I was amazed at how great ChatGPT and DeepSeek and Claude etc are at quickly throwing together some small visualisations in Python or JavaScript. But they struggled a lot with Bird-style literate Haskell. (And just that specific style. Plain Haskell code was much less of a problem.)

[trevor-e]

Because there are plenty of devs who take the output, actually read if it makes sense, do a code review, iterate back and forth with it a few times, and then finally check in the result. It's just a tool. Shitty devs will make shitty code regardless of the tool. And good devs are insanely productive with good tools. In your example what's the difference with that dev just copy/pasting from StackOverflow?

[DustinBrett]

Because on SO someone real wrote it with a real reason and logic. With AI we still need to double check that what we are giving ever made any sense. And SO also has votes to show the validty.

I agree if devs iterated over the results it could be good, but that has not been what I have been seeing.

It is not a traditional tool because tools we had in the past had expected results.

[eru]

Agreed!

To go off on a tangent: yes, good developers can produce good code faster. And bad developers can produce bad code faster (and perhaps slightly better than before, because the models are mostly a bit smarter than copy-and-paste is).

Everyone potentially benefits, but it won't suddenly turn all bad programmers into great programmers.

[throwawayffffas]

In my experience the lack of correctness and accuracy (I have seen a lot of calls to hallucinated apis), is made up from the "eagerness" to fill out boilerplate.

It's indeed like having a super junior, drunk intern working for you if we are using the gps analogy.

Some work is done but you have to go over it and fix a bunch of things.

[randomNumber7]

You are. Only noobs do this, experts using a llm are way more efficient. (Unless you work like with the same language and libraries for years)

[bilekas]

> (Unless you work like with the same language and libraries for years)

I'm not sure what you mean here? Are you saying that if you work with the same language for years that you're some how not proficient with using LLMs?

[rvba]

Sounds like someone who switches jobs and technologies every year, so someone else has to clean up the mess

[randomNumber7]

The advantage of LLMs is smaller if you know everything by heart.

[worthless-trash]

I understand exactly what you mean, feel like there are buckets of people who are just trying to gas light every reader.

[ransom1538]

I am x10 faster with gpt. No regex, no stackoverflow, no sql, no broiler plate, no text manipulations.

[grayhatter]

> well the AI picked this

hey look, we found him!