[mplemay]

This opinion is not backed by facts, any insight about linux (or even the languages in question), or even related to this post. Nevertheless, I wonder if it was a good idea to allow rust contributions to the linux project. From all of the bits and pieces I read about zig (including this project), I feel like it would have been better aligned (than rust) to pick up where the mainly C codebase left off.

[renox]

Zig isn't 1.0 so..

[whytevuhuni]

Not really. Zig's answer to safety is mostly based on runtime panics, and the kernel really, really hates panics.

As such, the only thing left is better ergonomics, and that's not really worth the effort to switch.

Rust isn't being adopted because it's an easier language to code in, and in fact it's being adopted in spite of the fact that it's harder to code in. And that's because to some kernel devs, the promise of better security and fewer vulnerabilities is worth that much.

On the other hand, Zig is great for user-space applications. The stuff to replace GNU's coreutils with.

[AndyKelley]

> Zig's answer to safety is mostly based on runtime panics

This statement is nonsensical.

Zig's answer to safety is based on a precise type system and a simple language that helps the programmer in their quest to write perfect code. If a kernel panics, that is either a bug or hardware failure.

[whytevuhuni]

> This statement is nonsensical.

You're right, my bad. It is hard to be precise in a comment where I'm trying to be as concise as possible.

I'm sure you know what I mean though, with regards to temporal memory safety (lifetimes), data races (Send/Sync traits), etc. Rust works by preventing many classes of bugs through compile errors, rather than panics.

> If a kernel panics, that is either a bug or hardware failure.

And this is where Rust differs; Rust will reduce the likelihood of bugs from happening in the first place. I'm not saying Zig doesn't also do that, Rust just does it more.

The Rust compiler devs, in their quest to make a type system that is powerful enough to catch most memory corruption errors, somehow came up with something that can be used to catch far more issues than just that.

The affine(ish) type system, coupled with lifetimes, makes modeling and maintaining correct states much easier than in Zig, for all sorts of objects and abstractions.

From what I've read from Linus on LKML/lore along the years, a kernel oops/panic is seen as one of the worst things that could happen to it; there is generally nothing the user can do at that point to debug it (they likely won't even see the console), and makes the machine unusable for all other tasks. Sometimes you might be lucky and just kill and collect the thread that panicked, but oftentimes you get the nuclear OOPS option. With Zig you don't even get the option to catch it via something like catch_unwind.

[budro]

> And this is where Rust differs; Rust will reduce the likelihood of bugs from happening in the first place. I'm not saying Zig doesn't also do that, Rust just does it more.

I'd argue that it does this a LOT more. When it comes to spatial safety, Rust and Zig are on par. However in terms of temporal safety I think Zig lags far behind Rust... along with basically every other compiled systems language.

If you had to come up with a single good reason to use Rust over Zig, it would definitely be temporal safety. A majority of applications don't need this though, or can be designed such that they don't.

One of my main issues with Rust is that it makes it easy to write spaghetti code that uses reference counting all over the place. I don't recommend people to use Rust until they become a "N+1 programmer" that Casey Muratori describes as "grouped element thinking" [1]. At this point, most of that programmers problems are solved and suddenly the Zig vs Rust debate becomes much more nuanced.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt1KNDmOYqA

[senkora]

> until they become a "N+1 programmer" that Casey Muratori describes as "grouped element thinking"

Thank you for this great link.

[the_duke]

> When it comes to spatial safety

Only at the cost of runtime checks and/or misusable allocator passing.

[budro]

> Only at the cost of runtime checks

And those checks are well worth paying for, enough that Rust also has them! I'm sure Rust would have even worse ergonomics if it insisted on no runtime bounds/unwrap checks. The performance cost is low enough that every systems programming language should have spatial safety. To illustrate, Google found that hardening libc++ by adding bounds checks only led to a 0.30% performance impact on their services [1]. It's not hard to imagine that a similar run-time cost affects Zig and Rust. Both languages make attempts to optimize the checks away if the operation is known-safe. Although, maybe Rust is more successful due to the borrow checker.

> and/or misusable allocator passing.

Could you clarify how allocator misuse might lead to a spatial safety violation?

[1] https://security.googleblog.com/2024/11/retrofitting-spatial...

[caspper69]

I've done a couple of projects in Rust, and I can appreciate this sentiment.

I don't think my code was pretty and I know it wasn't idiomatic. But I have some experience in writing concurrent code, so I have an understanding of the reasoning behind Rust's borrowing semantics, why lifetimes are important, and the difference between boxed values, rc, arc, and I additionally understand the semantics of semaphores, mutexes, spinlocks, and critical sections.

(As an aside, I don't know if I'm an N+1 programmer. My code works, long term, requires very little maintenance, and generally stays out the way. Just the way I like it.)

But- I see these recurring themes in posts from Rustaceans along the lines of "the compiler tells you what's wrong" and "if it compiles, it's correct!"

These kinds of statements worry me. Not necessarily because I think their code is going to blow something up, but because I think a sizeable portion of the community does not really understand the guarantees Rust provides, and under what contexts they are valid. I mean, sure, you might not have a data race, but you sure as hell can code yourself into race condition or a deadlock, and from what I understand from HNers, these situations are not all that uncommon in Rust crates. I'm also led to believe that the panic handling situation in some crates isn't ideal.

You shouldn't just haphazardly Arc<Mutex<T>> all the things just because that gives you the Send + Sync that you think you're looking for (or the compiler is looking for). You should understand what the hell you're doing, be able to tell if those things are necessary, and understand the ramifications of using those abstractions.

I think there's a lot of good going on in the Rust ecosystem, and I wish I had more work in that area, but there's a lot of blind advocacy there that assumes the Rust approach is the best, but the language does have serious ergonomic limitations in certain low level scenarios. My whole career I've had to focus on scope and objects that outlive their scope, but now every other word I seem to hear from the Rust community is "Lifetimes" and "Ownership", like these concepts were completely unfamiliar to developers before and now the Rust Way(tm) is not only THE WAY, but THE ONLY RIGHT WAY.

I don't want to go too far off the rails, because I find the ecosystem intriguing, and I see tremendous value there. Whether those approaches stand the test of time isn't a given (although let's face it, they probably will because they are sound and they are gaining developer mindshare, which is the most important factor).

I just worry about ergonomics. Coding is not supposed to be easy, so please don't misunderstand- but coding, especially for those that do it day in and day out for decades, should not be a chore. There are definitely some QOL improvements that could be realized in the near term, although I'm not sure what those would look like.

[saagarjha]

I actually find that their comment makes a lot more sense than yours.

[hitekker]

Andy Kelley's comment corrected unintentional flamebait. I don't see how his comment was confusing.

[defen]

Rust also has runtime panics (e.g. indexing outside the bounds of a slice) - how does kernel Rust handle that?

[whytevuhuni]

It does not, for slice indexing Rust is just as bad. My best guess is that this will likely blow up into such a big issue that the Rust devs are going to be forced to implement a feature to disable indexing (and leave just the safe .get()), or the kernel devs will fork the core library.

But Rust prevents a myriad of other things that would be panics in Zig or undefined behavior in C. It has a really strong type system, capable of reducing a large amount of invalid states and keeping many invariants throughout very large codebases.

[nine_k]

Static checks remove many more potential sources of panic. I suspect that with certain restraint one can write Rust code that is statically guaranteed to not panic.

Also, Rust's panics may be recoverable, it's not necessarily fatal.

[timeon]

Yes it would be better C, but compared to Rust, is that enough?