[wanderingmoose]

There is a lot of discussion here about IP theft. Honest question, from deepseek's point of view as a company under a different set of laws than US/Western -- was there IP theft?

A company like OpenAI can put whatever licensing they want in place. But that only matters if they can enforce it. The question is, can they enforce it against deepseek? Did deepseek do something illegal under the laws of their originating country?

I've had some limited exposure to media related licensing when releasing content in China and what is allowed is very different than what is permitted in the US.

The interesting part which points to innovation moving outside of the US is US companies are beholden to strict IP laws while many places in the world don't have such restrictions and will be able to utilize more data more easily.

[thiago_fm]

The most interesting part is that China has been ahead of the US in AI for many years, just not in LLMs.

You need to visit mainland China and see how AI applications are everywhere, from transport to goods shipping.

I'm not surprised at all. I hope this in the end makes the US kill its strict IP laws, which is the problem.

If the US doesn't, China will always have a huge edge on it, no matter how much NVidia hardware the US has.

And you know what, Huawei is already making inference hardware... it won't take them long to finally copy the TSMC tech and flip the situation upside down.

When China can make the equivalent of H100s, it will be hilarious because they will sell for $10 in Aliexpress :-)

[twobitshifter]

You don’t even need to visit china, just read the latest research papers and look at the authors. China has more researchers in AI than the West and that’s a proven way to build an advantage.

[nicce]

It is also funny in a different way. Many people don't realise that they live in some sort of bubble. Many people in "The West" think that they are still the center of the world in everything, while this might not be so correct anymore.

In the U.S. there is 350 million people and EU has 520 million people (excluding Russia and Turkey).

China alone has 1.4 billion people.

Since there is a language barrier and China isolates themselves pretty well from the internet, we forget that there is a huge society with high focus on science. And most of our tech products are coming from there.

[realusername]

> China alone has 1.4 billion people.

There's some clues that their population count isn't accurate and would be closer to 1.2 billion in reality, not that it changes the conclusion.

[new_user_final]

More accurately more than 1 Billion. So, US population is their rounding error.

[mordae]

Not just that. They have 19% of people with tertiary education.

So about as many as US has adults.

[lfmunoz4]

My understanding is that not having H100s is irrelevant because most Chinese companies can partner or just own companies in say Australia that can load up on H100s in their data centers in Australia and "rent them out" or offer a service to the Chinese parent company.

[nostradumbasp]

Maybe not $10 unless they are loss-leading to dominance. Well they actually could very well do exactly that... Hm, yea, good points. I would expect at least an order or two of magnitude higher to prevent an inferno.

Lets be fair though. Replicating TSMC isn't something that could happen quickly. Then again, who knows how far along they already are...

[gregw2]

The superiority of TikTok's recommendation algorithm outcomes over youtube should have been a clue.

BTW, who in China is doing the best AI on goods shipping since you mention it?

[fulafel]

What law would be broken here? Seems that copyright wouldn't apply unless they somehow snatched the OpenAI models verbatim.

[lfmunoz4]

Agree that US is at a disadvantage for innovation because of lawsuits, wonder if it will eventually lead to US becoming 2nd place of innovation.