[scoofy]

I don’t think it’s over, we’ve just hit the end of post war prosperity, and we are shifting our parties’ respective structures.

The idea that we’ve literally never elected any president younger than a boomer is telling. The party is facing an intergenerational crisis, and but both parties are captured by one generation. If the electorate realigns or one party begins to concern itself with the struggles of the 80’s and 90’s, things will go back to normal.

This is a series of repudiations, not an embrace of fascism.

[locopati]

You don't think targeting trans folks and immigrants with unconstitutional executive orders isn't an embrace of fascism?

[dzhiurgis]

Your comment is an insult to people who actually had to live thru fascism.

[saagarjha]

Do you think the people who are suffering consequences that are typically imposed by fascism care for your distinctions that we are not fascist enough?

[locopati]

it starts small and snowballs. these executive orders are using the same demonizing language and actions as the early anti-Jewish laws of 1930s Germany and we know how that turned out.

[scoofy]

I'm a liberal democrat. I'm just going to be up front about that. I think the left has made some real tactical errors in their policy, and it's upsetting people. Most people just want to live their lives and are fine with others living theirs.

On the trans topic, I obviously think trans folks should be able to live their lives, and I think the nonsense about bathrooms is ridiculous. The solution is obviously just not segregating bathrooms by sex.

Most of the hostility here has to do with sport. Where I think the left has fumbled this is not taking the argument for trans folks seriously enough. Gender is a social construct, sex is not... but we don't segregate our sports because of gender differences (that it's somehow icky to have boys touching girls), we segregate our sports because sex differences means biologically female folks are at a natural disadvantage. If we on the left actually took this argument seriously, we should be arguing for trans women competing in (biologically) male sport, because the point of gender being a social construct means we shouldn't see this as a problem. Same for trans men competing in (biologically) female sport.

That we conflate them is an unforced error and honestly undermines the entire argument that trans solidarity is based on (an argument that I generally support).

The conflations continue when we are discussing "immigrants." I've long held that I have no idea why the American left seems totally fine with ignoring the fact that people are overstaying their visas. I'm pretty close to an open borders guy, so I very obviously hate our immigration policy. However, that doesn't mean we should just ignore laws we don't like. We fight to change them. If we're allowed to just ignore perfectly reasonable laws like visa limitations, then there's no reason the right can't start ignoring background checks for gun purchases, or prosecutions for civil rights violations of, say, trans folks. Ignoring laws we don't like breaks the "faithfully execute" oath that executives generally take... it's also wildly undemocratic.

Overstaying a visa is not something we should be exercising civil disobedience over. It has nothing to do with asylum seekers or refugees. It's just people ignoring the perfectly legitimate -- if onerous -- rules for visiting. If I want to live in France, it would be ridiculous to suggest that I should just go their on vacation and then stay.

Again, we elected a fascist, I'm not denying that, but the main complaints I've heard from the right that have led here aren't fascist arguments. They all seem like legitimate complaints about the left, complains I generally disagree with or are low priorities for me, but legitimate. When I start hearing actual fascist desires from the electorate, like eliminating opposition parties, then I'll start freaking out. That's not to say it's not bad, it is, my point is only that the previous three cycles look much more like repudiation results -- because the US is facing financial headwinds and an awkwardly divided electorate -- and the coalitions are shifting.

[locopati]

there's more nuance to sport than that. pre-puberty is not the same as college athletics. I'm not going to deep dive all the flawed logic around removing trans people from sport. internet search is there for you.

as to immigration... we're about to see what happens to the US food supply when you remove migrant workers from the equation. why do they never go after the employers, just the employees? (we both know the answer)

"first they came for..." resonates for a reason... this is the first line of a longer poem playing out.

[scoofy]

>"I'm not going to deep dive all the flawed logic around removing trans people from sport. internet search is there for you."

I gave you paragraphs of my time. I'm trying to be open and honest about things that I honestly find difficult to discuss.

Again I completely understand and support the argument that gender is a social construct. Intersex and pre-puberty trans folks are deserving of dignity and respect. They are an absolutely minuscule part of society, and will always be a special case. When the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of trans athletes are trans women, I can understand when parents think it's not fair. Again, I think it's pretty clear that our sport segregation is about sex differences, not gender differences. There just aren't many Chris Mosier's out there.

>as to immigration... we're about to see what happens to the US food supply when you remove migrant workers from the equation. why do they never go after the employers, just the employees? (we both know the answer)

I fully agree, it's going to suck. If it helps us get to a sensible immigration system, it'll be a silver lining, but I'm not optimistic.

[locopati]

I am trans. I am scared. I am exhausted. do your own research.

I'll just say this... there aren't even vast vast vast vast numbers of trans athletes. Most states where this legislative is being pushed don't even have trans athletes. This is a wedge issue designed to create divison and it is working. It is designed to separate trans people and create hatred and it is working.

[scoofy]

I'm in SF. I agree it's a wedge issue. My concern is that those of us on the left are losing. This entire thread started by being about my belief that we aren't falling into a fascist hole, even if we did elect a fascist again. We have real economic issues we are dealing with, neither party is actually dealing with them, and so the traditional parties are shifting in coalitions.

My hope is that we can find some middle way that gets us to a better place. I think the trans athlete issue is a distraction, but one I think it might want to reconsider, as it's mostly symbolic. I want trans folks to be treated with dignity and respect, and every day gender discrimination issues I see as non-negotiable.