[rollcat]

Try installing OpenBSD then. Even though the installer runs in text mode, it holds your hand thru a standard setup, all the way to a graphical login. The basic X11 desktop is a part of the base system (as opposed to packages/ports).

The installer also supports a bunch of advanced features, like scripting an automated install. OpenBSD is also some of the cleanest and simplest code I've ever read.

[eth0up]

Maybe it seems a stupid question, but it's an honest one: why openbsd rather than freebsd?

I tried freebsd when Debian integrated systemd. Being neither savvy or intelligent, I had trouble with the ports system and installations were taking hours for small applications. I gave up.

I've always had a nagging desire to try again, but poor health has discouraged me from those kinds of learning curves. I recently left Debian again and use Void, with Opensuse on a separate drive for purposes of maintaining some competency and familiarity with systemd (just in case...).

Anyway, I'd appreciate your input on the various BSDs. As I understand, recent funding suggests it may be growing and will remain viable for a long time, which was, however relevant or not, a concern for me.

Edit: I might also mention that I gave serious consideration to Chimera before settling on Void, for similar reasons of learning curves. Of all distros, I had determined it would either be Void or Chimera and nothing else - or BSD.

[homebrewer]

You don't have to use ports, FreeBSD has supported pre-compiled binary packages since 2014.

https://klarasystems.com/articles/a-quick-look-at-the-histor...

[eth0up]

Thanks for the info. Time flies.

[rollcat]

> I recently left Debian again and use Void, with Opensuse on a separate drive [...], I gave serious consideration to Chimera before settling on Void [...]

Have you tried to write down your goals/expectations? It seems like you're throwing distros at the wall to just see what sticks. I don't care for apt vs xbps or systemd vs openrc. My own goals are simple:

- I want a "UNIX workstation", overall decent for software development, need to run complex proprietary software (Logic, Compressor, Photoshop...), interface with niche hardware, develop for iOS, and occasionally play games: macOS

- I want to play a couple of games that won't run on Mac/Linux/BSD: Windows

- I want a simple system that I can understand and actually enjoy using: OpenBSD, Alpine

> purposes of maintaining some competency and familiarity with systemd

You can also just use a VM or a homelab box. No need to care for your personal device, as long as it fulfils your stated goals.

> why openbsd rather than freebsd?

I think OpenBSD is to FreeBSD what FreeBSD is to Linux, and then some more. I'd say these are its most distinguishing features (compared to almost every other OS):

- User-friendly - assuming you have some experience with the command line, can follow prompts, read documentation, etc.

- Excellent documentation, check out the FAQ: <https://www.openbsd.org/faq/>; manpages: <https://man.openbsd.org>; etc. Even compared even to the FreeBSD handbook, which (while a step up from most Linux distros) isn't quite on the same level.

- Secure by default: it is the upstream project for OpenSSH, LibreSSL, PF (notably forked into macOS and FreeBSD), and some others; also: privilege separation, W^X memory, (K)ASLR, doas, signify, pledge, unveil, kernel/libc random relinking, syscall origin verification, etc. Best part, you get all of that for free and you don't even notice. There's no "hardening guide".

- Truly self-hosting - the base system has everything you'd require to comfortably develop the base system, including X11, clang, mg (an Emacs clone - if you're not a vi fan), tmux, etc. You will probably install packages anyway, to get your preferred tools, but the base system will still be there.

- Innovative, not just technologically but culturally: cvsweb was the first of its kind - the source code, including all commits, could be anonymously browsed via the web, in (IIRC) 1996; most contemporary projects would just occasionally throw tarballs over the fence.

- Simplicity. It is not just the manpages or the source code; OpenBSD meticulously rips out or refuses to accept complex systems (sudo, gpg, seccomp) and instead introduces simpler interfaces (doas, signify, pledge)

I wish I could live in a world where this is all I need, but unfortunately, OpenBSD brands itself as a "research OS", and doesn't provide any accommodations such as binary compatibility between releases, Linux syscall emulation (which FreeBSD does), and so on. Even vmd(8) is a recent addition.

[eth0up]

Hell of a reply. I'd definitely buy you a coffee for it.

Thanks for all the considerations.

PS: regarding throwing distros at the wall; I used the same installation of Debian for 10 years. It was my workstation and everything else. But its direction isn't mine anymore, and I gave quite a bit of thought to my choice, ie Void. FreeBSD would be in addition, not a replacement. Also, my primary needs are far more primitive than yours or what you mentioned. I mostly need something I can trust, that doesn't change for the sake of change. That and for it to be able to do basics, eg python without dependency hell, video editing, office, music/editing, caveman AI, and such. Hardly more. Oh, and freedom. That's really important.

[rollcat]

I've also been on Debian for 15 years, before switching to macOS. I had a dozen very good reasons (incl. I've finally been doing the work I've always wanted to), but the "change for the sake of change" seems kinda Apple's motto nowadays, and yes it's hella irritating. Still - for me, macOS beats any other OS in that it fits most of my needs almost exactly.

And when I want a Mac that's much simpler, I also have a TiBook! <https://www.rollc.at/posts/2024-07-02-tibook/>

> Oh, and freedom. That's really important.

The only true freedom is to do what you desire. For me, it's e.g. playing StarCraft. Yeah I can make it run on Linux under Wine. No, figuring out why it's broken again is not my idea of free time ;)

[LeFantome]

You might like Chimera Linux. It also “refuses to accept complex systems”, except it is still Linux and so does not have the limitations of OpenBSD.

Chimera Linux also uses doas. The Turnstile project is a good example of Chimera Linux rolling its own when no suitable alternative is available (to replace Systemd in this case).

[rollcat]

I see your points, but Alpine already checks most of these boxes, so for me the cost of switching outweighs any expected benefits. (I don't believe in "just trying it out" in a VM, because the real issues crop up only when daily driving.)