[crag]

Wasn't he a buddhist? Not that that means anything. Buddhist's are more then capable of being shit-heads.

But if he was a practicing buddhist.. wouldn't he had recognized what leads to suffering? Desire of course. Desire to be be perfect. Or maybe his desire to prove he was right?

There are other words I'd use to describe him (and several other corporate giants); arrogance comes to mind.

Sometimes these men think there really did do it all on their own. Why I love hearing a billionaire say, "I'm a self made man". Oh really? So all the people who worked for you, cooked for you, kept your schedule, managed your companies, investments and life didn't do a damn thing? Really?

And that's what I think of Steve Jobs. No doubting he was brilliant and had amazing taste. But he wasn't the most important person in the room. At it's start Woz built Apple. Steve just sold it. And today, he didn't design the products, but he had vision of what he wanted. And many of us wanted the same thing. He was a damn good salesman. And he had a great ability of keeping everyone on focus. But he wasn't the most important person in the room. Apple could (and it does) go on without him. And I think he knew it. And it dogged him all his life.

I'm also believe in karma. And the way he died,, his long battle/suffering - leads me to believe he had debts to pay. I only hope, in the end he died clean.

[smsm42]

Self-made man doesn't mean nobody did anything for you. If an olympic athlete wins a race, he didn't build the stadium, didn't sew his uniforms and shoes, didn't grow and squeeze his morning juice drink with his own hands, didn't build the car he used to get to the stadium and didn't personally extract the oil and made it into the gasoline to power his vehicle. All these things are done by other people. That does not mean these other people share the success of the olympic athlete and should get gold medals too, even though if he had no shoes, no clothes, no food, no car and no gasoline, he probably couldn't win the even he won.

There's a thing called separation of labor. It is one of the biggest advantage of civilization, one of the biggest thing separating people from most of the animals (some animals have primitive separation of labor, but most do not). It allows people to be much more prosperous and successful by offloading many tasks to other people and gaining enormous specialization and scale advantages. We - as the human race - literally could not exist in the current form without it.

However the existence of the separation of labor does not mean that we owe fruits of our labor to every other person on the planet, even if for many of those it is possible to trace their part to something you used to produce these fruits. People invented money for exactly this reason - if you want a car, you pay money for a car, and since that moment you do not owe anything to the car maker. The car is yours, and if you drive it to work that makes you a billionaire - it's your billion, not car maker's. If you hire somebody, you pay them money. If somebody cooked a meal for you and you became a billionaire, you owe him a decent cook's salary, but you do not owe him your success.

[crag]

" If an olympic athlete wins a race, he didn't build the stadium, didn't sew his uniforms and shoes, didn't grow and squeeze his morning juice drink with his own hands,"

Ahh, but he had a coach/trainer. And financial backing - allowing him to buy the equipment and travel that was need to compete.

No one lives in a vacuum. No one.

[smsm42]

This is true, but also so banal as to be meaningless. Yes, nobody lives in vacuum. So what? Yes, people hire other people to help them to achieve their goals - however, being paid by somebody does not automatically entitle you to be part of every achievement that they payer reaches since the moment of service. Sometimes there's a relationship that does imply common achievement - like trainer/athlete or mentor/mentee or teacher/student - sometimes it may go beyond mere trading of service in exchange for money. But this is a special case which definitely does not apply to any service and transaction, it is usually unique and develops over a long time. Saying that just because there's a network of people and services that surrounds us they all have claims on our achievements doesn't make much sense.

[mcantelon]

>Why I love hearing a billionaire say, "I'm a self made man". Oh really? So all the people who worked for you, cooked for you, kept your schedule, managed your companies, investments and life didn't do a damn thing? Really?

The individualist "self made man" notion seems a conceit designed to introduce the concept of aristocracy, which humans seem drawn to, to modern capitalism.

[smsm42]

The idea of "self made man" is directly opposed to the concept of aristocracy - which derives its uniqueness and elevation from belonging to a long row of elevated ancestors and to a long-living tradition. No aristocrate would ever call oneself "self-made" - that's the same as calling oneself an impostor or a fraud. One can be made an aristocrat - e.g. by a royalty - and fresh-minted aristocrats always were considered the lowest form of aristocracy by the "old" and "true" ones, the length of the family tree always was the main source of aristocratic pride. But one can never be a "self-made" aristocrat, it's a direct contradiction in terms and concepts. I'm sorry, but your theory makes no sense at all.

[pyre]

aristocracy? The aristocracy were hardly 'self-made.' It was inherited. While a 'self-made' billionaire can't claim to have no employees, he probably did work for his money.

[gruseom]

I'm also believe in karma. And the way he died,, his long battle/suffering - leads me to believe he had debts to pay.

No human has the right to judge any other human this way. Since you believe in karma, hadn't you better stop?

[crag]

"No human has the right to judge any other human..."

I wasn't judging. I was making an observation. And we "humans" have the right to judge ourselves. :)

[saraid216]

Zen and the Art of Divebombing:

http://www.friesian.com/divebomb.htm