[genedan]

My dad was one these ARVN soldiers. In the final days of the war he and his drill sergeant stole a helicopter as Saigon fell and flew west, expecting to keep fighting. They wound up in a refugee camp in Thailand and eventually made it to the US. He wouldn't see his family again until Clinton normalized relations with Vietnam 20 years later.

In those final moments, soldiers who knew how to fly took whatever aircraft they could get their hands on, (Chinooks, Hueys, Cessnas, etc.) and flew aimlessly, hoping to run into friendly forces along the way before their fuel ran out.

[refurb]

People get so tangled up in the geopolitics of these types of conflicts, and forget that every person the war touched has a personal story.

I’ve known quite a few Vietnamese who lived through the conflict and their stories, no matter how lucky they were, the stories are incredible and hard to comprehend, no matter which side and whether they suffered horribly or made it out real relatively unscathed.

Whether fleeing at a moments notice from your country of birth, never knowing where you are going or whether you’ll ever return. Or even the stories of people seeing the end and planning in advance what they will need and how to make sure family is ok.

Then you think about the scale of it and that tens of millions of humans went through it and it’s impossible to comprehend the scale of it.

What is really remarkable is the resiliency of humans. You speak to people who went through it and realize many have the perspective of “you did what you had to do” and “its a part of my life that is over now”, but try and imagine how hard it must be to live in a country of relative peace and see all these people around you who have never, and will never, go through anything similar, and try and have it all make sense.

It’s also really fascinating talking to people who stayed in South Vietnam after. The entire system is reset. The police, the government, even where you get your food is swept away and rebuilt. I’ve noticed many people thrive on rumors as the government isn’t known for transparency. Days after the war order is restored and you hear rumors of what will come. Neighbors gossip, you do your best to prepare and wait.

[arrowsmith]

> It’s also really fascinating talking to people who stayed in South Vietnam after. The entire system is reset.

It took me a while to appreciate the significance of renaming Saigon to Ho Chi Minh City. I've lived in HCMC (although I'm not Vietnamese) and the renaming is actually controversial to this day, although most Vietnamese know better than to speak up about it.

Basically, imagine if Russia conquered Ukraine and then renamed Kyiv to "Vladimir Putin City".

[refurb]

> It took me a while to appreciate the significance of renaming Saigon to Ho Chi Minh City.

The interesting thing is that locals continue to use "Saigon" in everyday conversation. It seems like the government decided that wasn't a fight worth having.

Someone told me that several government agencies still use "Saigon" as well on logos and such.

The interesting thing is that "Saigon" came from the French occupation. The Vietnamese ruling under the French renamed it "Sai Gon", and the French used "Saigon". Before the French arrived, it was called Gai Dinh.

[skhr0680]

Historically, I think it's akin to when Russia conquered Russia and renamed St. Petersburg to Leningrad

[arrowsmith]

Stalingrad, Léopoldville, Karl-Marx-Stadt, Constantinople. Many such cases!

[LtWorf]

> Constantinople

I think it's not the same if you build a new city :)

[arrowsmith]

Didn't he rename the existing city of Byzantium?

[lr1970]

> Basically, imagine if Russia conquered Ukraine and then renamed Kyiv to "Vladimir Putin City".

This is really a poor analogy. Kyiv is the birthplace of ancient Russia (Kyiv Rus) and for both Ukrainians and Russians it is like Jerusalem for Jews and Arabs. It is easier to imagine renaming Moscow into Zelensky City than Kyiv into Putin.

[ernst_klim]

That's a strange historical revisionism in Ukraine. Traditionally, Rus history is considered to begin with Ladoga, then Rurik moved to Novgorod, and only later his successors moved to Kiev.

Saying that one true Rus is Kiev and not Novgorod or Moskow is rather a modern Ukrainian national myth. All and neither were true Rus.

[philwelch]

Also the Rus were Norse warlords who conquered those lands.

[LakesAndTrees]

Except Ukraine is a sovereign nation - much like Russia (which in today’s form does not hold any reasonable claim to Kyiv) - and renaming either nations capital city to satisfy some man’s thirst for legacy would be equally vulgar. The analogy holds pretty well, from where I’m standing.

[arrowsmith]

It’s a good analogy because to rename Ukraine’s capital city after its conqueror would be a gigantic “fuck you” to the people of Ukraine, rubbing salt into the fresh wounds of their conquest, which is exactly what North Vietnam did to the South.

You’re just doing the typical HN thing of responding to an analogy by pointing out differences that are irrelevant to the point of the analogy.

[sandworm101]

>> capital city after its conqueror would be a gigantic “fuck you” to the people

As how most every port city in North America is named by whatever western explorer first put it on a map? From Botany Bay to Vancouver, Los Angeles and even Virginia USA, placenames are pulled from the culture of the conquerors. Only when one gets into the hinterlands do local names appear.

[simplicio]

Eh? There's a ton of Native American place-names on the East Coast? Including at least three States.

[selectodude]

What white man is Chicago named after?

[woodruffw]

Manhattan?

[mantas]

And then Muscovites stole Rus name and tried to pretend they’re the leaders of pan(east)slavism. Probably one of the reasons for the outgoing war. Moscow wants to be the real Kiev. The only way is to destroy it.