[SwellJoe]

"but if this company was started solely by hackers it would not be nearly as good"

Interesting bit of prejudice here. What makes a hacker less capable of doing whatever it is that non-hackers do? Is it the thick held-together-with-tape glasses? Maybe the caffeine addiction addled brain?

The neat thing about an all-hacker startup is that hackers can choose NOT to hack part or all of their time when the job calls for it. A non-hacker doesn't have the ability to shift gears during the early days of the product to just work on shipping the damned thing.

I'm a hacker, and have code running on millions of machines world-wide in numerous Open Source projects, but in our startup today, I predominantly do not hack. I still spend about 25% of my time hacking, but it's becoming less every month, as other aspects of the company become more pressing (marketing/evangelism, money management, support, hiring contractors, design, etc.). I happen to have a lot of business experience, as well, and I don't think that J Random Hacker would step right into this kind of position without some study and work, but to imagine that being an all-hacker company would lead to it being "not nearly as good" is funny. Hackers are people, generally smarter than average. Many happen to have other skills and experience outside of hacking.

I'm just picking on you, of course. I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that there are magical skills that disappear when one becomes a hacker, or that the hacker mentality is a form of retardation that dramatically negatively impacts other skills.

[ahsonwardak]

SwellJoe - To give the argument a different twist, it's hard for most people to hold different perspectives beyond their best core ability. For many hackers, they're so engrossed in it, and for good reason. As you say, they are smarter than average, and programming affords them the opportunity to execute their ideas easily. Once you get so good at anything, including hacking or, more specifically, software development, it becomes hard to think about usability, design, business development, etc. Then, there arises a need for systems thinking or other thinkers with different areas of expertise. Would you agree?

[SwellJoe]

I would agree. To some degree. There are certainly hackers whose grasp and love of their subject is so deep that seeing the non-expert perspective is difficult. But usability can be learned and taught, and non-hackers (who don't have usability experience and/or training) are even more likely to design a stupid interface. Have you ever built an application to non-technical user specs? Without care, it'll turn out like the Homer (see: http://images.google.com/images?q=%22the+homer%22&ie=utf... ). If you're a hacker who only wants to think about hacking, then sure...you're not cut out for building the whole product and business, and you'll need some help. But hackers are not precluded from loving any of these subjects enough to take them seriously. I'm spending more time on design than ever before, and actually getting pretty good at it.

Paul Buchheit (AKA paul here at news.yc, AKA GMail creator, AKA "Don't be evil") is positive proof that one can be both a good developer and a good usability guy...first time I met him at YC, I thought, "Hmm, seems nice enough. Pretty smart fellow. But I'm surrounded by folks who are smart and likable, and they're also really driven. What is it about him that helps him build GMail while the rest of us haven't done anything nearly so big?" A few weeks later we were chatting about usability, and he described his interaction with a Bittorrent client...and it all became clear. He's happy to drop the smart on the floor and be a really dumb user who just wants to get something done--the kind that doesn't read documentation and doesn't care one whit about how things are done behind the scenes. It was eye-opening. A few weeks after that at Startup School, Max Levchin described the exact same process (a bit more concretely and perhaps offensively by releasing his inner 13 year old girl). Nonetheless, it's something that everyone building software for users ought to be a thinking about all the time. But again, hackers can think that way two.

pg harps on the same stuff, too. Whether intentionally, or not, his attention span is about that of a four year old, so when he looks over your shoulder and gives an opinion, it is nearly always one of "I don't understand what's happening there", unless you've done everything right...and that's exactly the sort of opinion you need. Your software is never going to be someones sole purpose in life, and you can't expect their undivided attention. They're talking on the phone, eating lunch at their desk, worrying about remembering to pickup the dry cleaning, and trying to figure out where they put that really important email. Some of them will also be really stupid, on top of all of those problems.

[geebee]

<Once you get so good at anything, including hacking or, more specifically, software development, it becomes hard to think about usability, design, business development, etc.>

Wow, I really disagree. While some programmers aren't especially good at those things, I don't think that there's any reason a top hacker couldn't be good at them. Actually, a good hackers have such a drive to create that they are forced to deal wth design and usability. They may not like business development, but if the drive is there, they'll do it.

I will admit to having poor aesthetic ability, though. I do need a designer to make my interfaces look good. But that's quite different from fundamental issues in usability and design.

[ahsonwardak]

Don't take it just in the context of a hacker/programmer. Think about all those other professions/occupations/specializations. We tend to zoom in one specific aspect of accomplishing something. I'm simply hypothesizing that comes at the expense of seeing the big picture. The best of us are those that see it from multiple angles and gain multiple specializations. Then again, they become "jack of all trades, master of none". That's another discussion. Is that useful?