[wmiel]

Interesting, it seems that extremely rich americans are discovering what scandinavian countries solve through taxation and effective government.

They used to have it in some form with 'new deal' and 'great society' until ~1970, but now they can't because of the very same reasons that are making them extremely rich.

Plus there's some fetisishation of efficiency of the private sector vs public one and distrust in public institutions, while in some areas I don't think it's warranted, it's just that public insititutions are more transparent than the private sector imo.

[9question1]

https://www.theatlantic.com/podcasts/archive/2025/01/elon-mu...

"Like, the same font, right? And she points this out to the HR manager, and they’re like, Yeah, that means that this person’s the most qualified, because it’s the exact same language. And she’s like, This person is clearly unqualified because they didn’t even know to reformat. And this is not an outlier. Like, this happens a lot.

So first they’re looking for these exact matches. And then they take everybody who was really close in language—and also, by the way, who has something called a government resume, which is different from a private-sector resume, and you have to know that somehow, magically, before you apply. Then from that pool, they send everyone a self-assessment questionnaire, and everybody who marks themselves as master, and I literally mean master—I think that’s the top rating in a lot of these—they make the next down select, so they move on to the next pool."

This is not necessarily what I would consider transparent or fair. FWIW I do think government can provide value, but I think folks who don't live in America don't understand how dramatically different and worse the implementation of government is in America from many other countries who sometimes do get value from some aspects of government even if the goals are similar.

[JambalayaJimbo]

I’m at a private company and the process of resume screening done by clueless HR people is the exact same. I referred a friend for a job position, he got turned away because he didn’t have Java Version X with Springboot on his resume, I told him to re-submit with that on there and voila he got an interview. (For reference, he was a Java backend dev for 10 years and already had that on his resume)

[Draiken]

Same exact thing (or worse) happens in private orgs. But we don't even have access to it.

I mean, we don't have to go far to see this. Nepotism is illegal in many countries for public institutions, and rampant on private ones.

This narrative that private corporations are better "just because" is so silly. We simply see the inefficiencies of the government and can't see the same ones on private entities. Especially the big ones.

I've never worked at a company that didn't have many absurd processes, incompetent people, useless bureaucracy and so on.

[ericjmorey]

I don't think you understand how bad it is in literally any large organization ever.

[vdqtp3]

I don't know your background, so I won't say I don't think you understand - but in my experience, government is multiple times worse than any private organization. Yes, the same problems exist - but without any of the pressures that force private business to adapt or fail, so the problems are worse by far.

[fastasucan]

You cant use your ideology as a proof that it is worse.

[vdqtp3]

I didn't use my ideology, I pointed out my experience. You can take it or leave it.

[ceejayoz]

This happens in private corporations, too. Most of us have gotten clearly bullshit resumes forwarded by HR.

[11101010001100]

Yes, these sorts of posts strike me as rich people learning that being rich doesn't solve everyone else's problems. Better late than never.

[keybored]

Policymaking is never discovered. It’s forced. Like class struggle forced the hand of actors like FDR during his presidency.

Then that was forced away by the reaction (class struggle) of the most right-wing capitalists and ideologues which ultimately lead to neoliberalism.

So sure, there are some set of relatively enlightened capitalists that want more of a social democratic status quo for the stability it brings. But the material conditions are not there.[1] So people like Jeff Atwood will write opinion pieces and give what is the grand of scheme of things token material support. But it can’t realistically happen right now in the US.

Of course the same principles apply to Scandinavian countries. They’re (our) false ideology is called the Nordic Model.

[1] Look at Bernie Sanders. The Independent senator who ran for the ostensibly left-wing Democratic Party as a mere social democrat and was shot down by the Establishment. Now that he is too old to run again and the presidential election is done for you see people in the Establishment say things like, huh I think that guy had a point!

[spencerflem]

This is downvoted, but its true.

Actual change will not come easily and it is opposed mightily by the ruling class

[robertlagrant]

America has a lot of taxation. Fortunately for the Scandinavian countries it spends it on "protecting Scandinavian shipping lanes" and "medical research grants that benefit Scandinavia", rather than solely on local welfare spending. The America First lot are learning a lot from Scandinavia there, though. I'm not sure we're all going to like where that could lead.

[ellen364]

I can't immediately think of a major US naval deployment in the North Sea outside the big NATO exercises every 1-2 years. Were you thinking of a specific shipping lane?

[dh2022]

US keeps the 6th fleet in Europe / Mediterranean sea. It costs a pretty penny to defend Europe's seas - about 40 ships,175 aircraft and 21 thousands people.

https://www.c6f.navy.mil/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Sixth_Fleet

[robertlagrant]

Scandinavia (like most countries; it's not specific to them) benefits from a relatively piracy-free world, and a constrained Russia. This takes a giant amount of money to achieve, and it's mostly funded by the US taxpayer.

[wslh]

It is very difficult to compare or extrapolate US with Scandinavian countries. US is socially super-heterogeneus, huge, and big population while Scandinavian countries are socially homogeneus, small size and population. And this is just the beginning.

[scotty79]

I though America spends its taxation on destabilizing Middle East and flooding Europe and Scandinavia with migrants.

If Europe tried to do what America does for Europe it should dump military equipment onto various central and South American countries so they can fight among themselves and create droves of refugees traveling North.

[ericjmorey]

The US has been destabilizing South and Central American Nations quite well on its own.

[josho]

This is a common misunderstanding. The US doesn’t send its military around the world because they want to protect freedom and democracy. The US does this to protect open markets that it then gets first right to exploit.

The US has benefited from this situation since WW2. It’s one reason why the US economy has been so successful.

It’s also only now that the US has exploited these markets that they can question the purpose to continue their military imperialism.

TLDR: the US military across the globe wasn’t done out of altruism. It was to expand US economic power.

[robertlagrant]

Arguing intentions seems foolish. The result is the world gets free trade defended basically at zero cost, which was my point. If Scandinavia had to pay for that, it would have far less money available to spend its money on Scandinavia First policies.

[fastasucan]

>the world gets free trade defended basically at zero cost

At zero cost? Ask the families of those who have been killed by american millitary.

>If Scandinavia had to pay for that

Other than the Scandinavian soldiers killed, and millitary gear lost in the different wars? Other than the thousanda of refugees scandinavia and europe have taken in from the destabilized middle East?

>it would have far less money available to spend its money on Scandinavia First policies.

There are no Scandinavian first policies.

Again, why should Scandinavian countries pay for Americas geopolitical activities more than is already done?

[robertlagrant]

You're being too general, in my opinion. Piracy is almost completed stopped just by presence, not by combat. American also engages in and their taxpayers fund foreign wars, which perhaps it should stop doing, but that is very separate to economically bouying up a global economy via and global R&D via global grant awards and open sharing of American research findings. Trump is right now pausing NIH funding and detaching from the WHO. All the funding that paid for benefited other countries is now gone, partly because people globally laughed at America for not spending enough on its citizens, and eventually enough of its citizens didn't think it was worth keeping on doing that any more.

[adamc]

This is just wrong, on many levels. If you look where tax revenues go, it's mostly defense (military industrial complex) and middle-class entitlements.

[mminer237]

That's just wrong. Defense spending is 13% of the budget: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/59727

Federal taxes are mostly spent on welfare like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, & SSI.

[adamc]

That isn't welfare. Most of those are middle-class entitlements. And defense is the second highest category: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...

Calling Social Security "welfare" is some weird political stance.

[ericjmorey]

You just said that "the budget is mostly Y" in response to, "the budget is mostly X + Y"

[dgfitz]

Huh?

adamc said "budget is mostly A + B" and the response was "no, its mostly W + X + Y + Z"

[adamc]

The things he cites are mostly middle-class entitlements. That's where a lot of social security and medicare spending goes.

[PKop]

I prefer my higher wages and lower taxes, thanks. We need to get a handle (moratorium) on mass immigration into US before we care about handing out more of our money for welfare. Why would I want my hard earned wages to be given to an endless influx of poor foreigners? The problem with higher taxes is the money is not spent well. Solve that and people are more willing to contribute.

Look at how badly run are the high tax cities and states in the US. Talk of taxing more without discussion of bad governance is a non starter.

[kstrauser]

I was raised in a low tax American state, and now live in a high tax one. The quality of life is so vastly better here that I could never go back.

Turns out those taxes actually build nice places to live.

[beastman82]

As a counterpoint I moved to Massachusetts where the roads are among the worst in the country. My taxes apparently do not buy infrastructure maintenance.

[hb-robo]

I don't really get Mass in general. On paper it seems like it should be quite a bit nicer than it is in reality. I live in the Hudson Valley and feel like it would be a downgrade in a few ways. And for being a deep blue state they are pretty far behind Cali/NY/Wash/Ill on things like food safety and health guidelines.

[hollerith]

>pretty far behind Cali/NY/Wash/Ill on things like food safety and health guidelines.

I know that state and local governments are responsible for inspecting restaurants. Also I know that NYC banned transfats in restaurant food. Is that what you mean by "food safety and health guidelines"?

[ciupicri]

What are those states?

[scarface_74]

Is it better for the people who live in the rural areas of whatever state you live in? Are the better areas affordable?

I’m far from a “disaffected rural White American Trump supporter” (yes I’m purposefully using a cliche). None of those adjectives describe me besides “American”. But a lot of people on the left (which I am when it comes to social issues) are very self unaware.

[jamespo]

Being on the left, but specifying on social issues suggests you want someone else to pay to solve those social issues.

[scarface_74]

No, I have no problem paying taxes or government requiring business to pay taxes.

I don’t agree with the over and mostly dumb regulation of tech from the left and I think they over index on the wrong issues and the reason we are where we are now is because old folks on the left wouldn’t exit the stage when they should have - Supreme Court justices and Biden specifically.

I’m pro Vax and have been shot up with every vaccine imaginable including multiple Covid boosters. But the anti-vax movement was exasperated by Democrats trying to force the Covid vaccine on people

[andrewl]

Although there is probably support for immigrants besides welfare, I believe that welfare itself is reserved for citizens.

And this is not a statement for or against immigration, but in response to what some people have said (not PKop, to whom I am replying): non-citizen immigrants do pay at least some taxes, in the form of sales tax. And, depending on how they are paid (cash or paycheck) they will also be paying taxes on their own pay. If they are getting cash it is easier to avoid taxes. It is harder if they're receiving a salary.

[PKop]

Immigrants from certain locations, which the vast majority of the waves of immigration we are getting in recent years, are net negatives in terms of budget impact, takers vs contributors to tax revenue. And yes, I agree with you on the perfectly logical and common sense position that welfare should be reserved for citizens.

Housing migrants in Hotels in US cities, paid for by citizen tax revenue, or guaranteed emergency health care, paid for by citizen tax revenue, among other examples are bad policy and unfair to Americans.

[kstrauser]

With at least one major exception: I want to non-citizens, whether here legally or not, to get healthcare. In the spirit of enlightened self interest, if someone has smallpox or tuberculosis or COVID or anything else deadly and communicable, IDGAF where they're from, I want them to get treatment.

[eloisant]

What are you talking about? Non-citizen immigrants pay the exact same taxes as citizens. Not just "some" taxes.

Taxation is based on where you live, not your citizenships. (Well except US citizens who have to pay federal taxes even if they live abroad but that's an exception).

[andrewl]

I was mostly thinking that poorly paid agricultural workers or other people doing periodic manual labor may be getting paid in cash, and perhaps they are not paying taxes on the money, even if they are legally required to. The wait staff and bartenders I used to know did not pay tax on their cash tips.

So what I am talking about is not what the legal requirement is, but to what degree it is followed. But to the degree these people pay taxes while here they are not getting a completely free ride when they take advantage of our tax-supported services.

On a related note, I would be happy for illegal immigrants to get at least some medical support, such as vaccinations and treatment for communicable diseases, as that benefits everybody.

[ericjmorey]

It's a non-starter to talk about having government do something that uses taxes like stopping people from moving past the line in the dirt.

[PKop]

It's a non starter to raise my taxes, fix your reading comprehension. Certainly, you wouldn't be surprised to know I think there's enough money to do this, and that I oppose the government doing other things but support the government doing this yes? It's just common sense.