[quasse]

> voters are not individual agents but rather a mob subject to manipulation by propaganda

Who is even saying this is not true? The United States government is more aware than maybe anyone else that influencing human opinion and action is a statistical problem once you have enough scale.

Just look at the history of the USIA [1] and its successor the USICA.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Information_Agen...

[kelseyfrog]

And today's Bureau of Global Public Affairs[1]. Which "engages media to shape the global narrative on American foreign policy and values [and] communicates U.S. foreign policy objectives to the American public." Of course, it's difficult to pierce the veil and determine exactly how they go about doing this. Narratives are propaganda.

https://www.state.gov/about-us-bureau-of-global-public-affai...

[lucianbr]

I think anyone who says democracy is good and the will of the people should be respected is implicitly saying that is not true. Implicitly saying voters are individual agents and not a mob.

Otherwise, if democracy is good and votes should matter and at the same time voters are a mob subject to manipulation... democracy is what? A system of government by whoever can do better propaganda? Why would that be good for anyone except those who do propaganda?

So yeah, I think many people are claiming that is not true.

One question I would ask if people are just a mob, who is actually pushing the buttons? Owners of media, political leaders, are also humans, no? They have the same weaknesses, at least in principle.

If you accept some people are different (those who command and control propaganda) then we must conclude that not all people are vulnerable to it, so maybe it's a spectrum. But still democracy sounds like a bad idea, as a majority are probably on the low end of the spectrum, and the majority rules.

[Swizec]

> I think anyone who says democracy is good and the will of the people should be respected is implicitly saying that is not true. Implicitly saying voters are individual agents and not a mob.

Both are true. We are individual agents and a mob.

Democracy, as we all know, is the worst political system except for all the others. At scale people on average behave about average and make decisions perfectly aligned with their systemic incentives and available information.

You (and me) are not immune to propaganda.

Strong recommend watching/readingupon Manufacturing Consent and Chomsky’s life work in general.

[ossobuco]

> Democracy, as we all know, is the worst political system except for all the others.

Honestly it would be about time we stop repeating this Churchill's quote as if it's one of the ten commandments. The man wasn't certainly a god and humans are often mistaken.

The actual meaning of democracy is the "power of the people". Nowhere that implies a western-like electoral system.

I'd argue in your average western democracy the people have very little power, with lots of symbolic processes to reinforce the illusion.

[Swizec]

> The actual meaning of democracy is the "power of the people". Nowhere that implies a western-like electoral system.

Correct. “we” used to do it simply by killing the leaders that were disliked. Elections are a bit friendlier than that :)

You might enjoy this Zizek video on the border between the west and the balkans: https://youtu.be/bwDrHqNZ9lo . I think he captures the sentiment well.

> I'd argue in your average western democracy the people have very little power, with lots of symbolic processes to reinforce the illusion.

This was Chomsky’s whole point in Manufacturing Consent.

[ossobuco]

I think then we can agree that if the people hold very little power, what we have today in the west is definitely not democracy.

A study[0] came to the conclusion that the US is in fact closer to an oligarchy, and I'd extend that to most other so-called democratic countries. The interests of a few always trump the interests of the many.

In this context, that Churchill's quote seems out of place and mostly serves the purpose of shutting down the discussion.

And thanks, I very much enjoy that Zizek video.

- [0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

[mvc]

> what we have today in the west is definitely not democracy

On the metric of "people power", do you think people in the east have it any better?

[emptysongglass]

I have a hard time taking Chomsky seriously after he felt his need to make his uninformed opinions on Russia's aggression and AI public.

Was Chomsky ever an expert? Maybe, I wouldn't know because I haven't read what he built his legacy upon. But that he wrote so poorly on two topics he has little experience with does him no favors.

[corimaith]

>Was Chomsky ever an expert?

Chomsky is a Linguistics Professor, he has no formal training in media or political theory. So yes, he is not an expert, and funnily enough he's the kind of leftist who straight up admits he is biased and selectively picks facts to support this arguments.

[Izkata]

> Was Chomsky ever an expert? Maybe, I wouldn't know because I haven't read what he built his legacy upon.

My entire life anything I hear from him has been misinformed and anything I hear about him is "Chomsky disproven". I have to imagine whatever he was known for happened before I was born - which I've never been exposed to. Granted I've never sought it out either.

To me he feels like an academic Kardashian: Famous for being famous, and it's not really clear how it started.

[BriggyDwiggs42]

I think he just went a little loopy with old age

[aydyn]

> I think anyone who says democracy is good and the will of the people should be respected is implicitly saying that is not true. Implicitly saying voters are individual agents and not a mob.

I think that is a pretty hardline interpretation, but there's another way of thinking about it:

democracy has worked pretty well up to now and there hasn't been a better replacement.

That doesn't mean it will continue being a good solution as technology and society change.

[lossolo]

Democracy is not a new concept, just current implementation is different. Democracy, in some form, dates back over 2500 years to ancient Athens (circa 5th century BCE). Around 1500 years ago (~500 CE), formal democracy as it existed in Athens had largely faded, particularly with the decline of the Roman Republic (509 BCE – 27 BCE), which had elements of representative governance. It struggled with corruption, inequality and power struggles, so all the problems that are getting stronger with time in our democratic systems. The idea of democracy reemerged during the Enlightenment (17th–18th centuries) and became formalized in modern political systems - United States (1776) and revolutionary France. We live in cycles, democracy probably will fade again, and again it will be considered anarchic and unstable until the cycle repeats itself.

[pantalaimon]

> That doesn't mean it will continue being a good solution as technology and society change.

Yea neo-feudalism seems to be all the rage these days.

Democracy is not a given, people with power want more power and less checks - historically that’s what things converged to typically.

[ben_w]

Not sure about what's really "typical", nor which name would best describe what direction the USA (let alone anyone else) is even heading in.

The ancient Greeks had ideas about the κύκλος (cycles) of government: Plato's cycle went [aristocracy > timocracy oligarchy > democracy > tyranny]; Polybius' cycle was [ochlocracy -> monarchy -> tyranny -> aristocracy -> oligarchy -> democracy -> ochlocracy] — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cycle_theory

[jaredklewis]

> I think anyone who says democracy is good and the will of the people should be respected is implicitly saying that is not true. Implicitly saying voters are individual agents and not a mob.

Disagree. Democracy can basically be mob rule and still be “good” if mob rule is better than alternatives like “divine right of kings,” “rule by military despot” and so on.

[ajmurmann]

I think Democracy is critically important. However, the main reason I believe this is because Democracy allows for the transfer of power without violence. That's THE value prop.

[jorvi]

You are so close to breaking through..

> Otherwise, if democracy is good and votes should matter and at the same time voters are a mob subject to manipulation... democracy is what? A system of government by whoever can do better propaganda? Why would that be good for anyone except those who do propaganda?

Yes. And you are already waking up to that in your next question.

> One question I would ask if people are just a mob, who is actually pushing the buttons? Owners of media, political leaders, are also humans, no? They have the same weaknesses, at least in principle.

> If you accept some people are different (those who command and control propaganda) then we must conclude that not all people are vulnerable to it

Why would those who do propaganda not be susceptible to disinformation, or the Dunning-Kruger or Gell-mann Amnesia effects? Every person is susceptible to disinformation. The difference is that those in power can disseminate disinformation at scale.

> so maybe it's a spectrum. But still democracy sounds like a bad idea, as a majority are probably on the low end of the spectrum, and the majority rules.

Hence "tyranny of democracy". Many places in the First world are now experiencing this, where 'green' programs and and social progress are being dismantled en masse because of a slight majority. Worst of it is, long term these decisions will carry a massive financial burden. The LA fires with $250 billion+ in damages are a herald of that.

[MichaelZuo]

There are hundreds of HN users commenting here as if their opinions have meaning and value.

Which would be in question if they could all be under various states of “influence”…

At the very least the median credibility would be roughly zero.

[mesh]

Just because you share an opinion does not mean that opinion has not been shaped, directed or influenced.

"The Overton window is the range of subjects and arguments politically acceptable to the mainstream population at a given time.[1] It is also known as the window of discourse. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent

[XorNot]

Also HN absolutely has an Overton window. It has an entire system to enforce it (the voting and points system).

[MichaelZuo]

Did you reply to the correct comment?

You don’t need to convince me that is a possibility.

[puffybunion]

You pose this as a mathematical question but stop far short of it's full extent

[dp-hackernews]

Chase Hughes:

"Manipulation Playbook: The 20 Indicators of Reality Control"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3AN2wY4qAM