[cartoffal]

> Understanding the map signature in Haskell is more difficult than any C construct.

This is obviously false. The map type signature is significantly easier to understand than pointers, referencing and dereferencing.

I am an educator in computer science - the former takes about 30-60 seconds to grok (even in Haskell, though it translates to most languages, and even the fully generalised fmap), but it is a rare student that fully understands the latter within a full term of teaching.

[liontwist]

Are the students who failed the pointer class the same ones in the fmap class?

I didn’t say “using map” I said understanding the type signature. For example, after introducing map can you write its type signature? That’s abstract reasoning.

Pointers are a problem in Haskell too. They exist in any random access memory system.

[3836293648]

Whether pointers exist is irrelevant. What matters is if they're exposed to the programmer. And even then it mostly only matters if they're mutable or if you have to free them manually.

Sure, IORef is a thing, but it's hardly comparable to the prevalence of pointers in C. I use pointers constantly. I don't think I've ever used an IORef.

[liontwist]

If you have an array and an index, you have all the complexity of pointers. The only difference is that Haskell will bounds check every array access, which is also a debug option for pointer deref.

[3836293648]

You are very disconnected from learners. They get confused over mutability, not bounds checking, which is not an option for raw pointers consistently

[CRConrad]

Hard to believe that “learners ... get confused over mutability” more than functional programming when millions of middle-schoolers grokked the idea of “mutability” in the form of variables in Basic, while I (and at a guess, at least thousands of other experienced programmers) have no fucking idea about pretty much all the stuff in most of the tens or hundreds of articles and discussions like this that we've seen over the years. Just plain stating that “mutability is more difficult” without a shred of evidence ain't gonna fly.

[catlifeonmars]

That’s an unfair comparison because these are two unrelated concepts. In many languages, pointers are abstracted away anyway. Something more analogous would be map vs a range loop.

[dhruvrajvanshi]

And I'd say the average React or Java developer these days understands both pretty well. It's the default way to render a list of things in React. Java streams are also adopted quite well in my experience.

I wouldn't say one is more difficult than the other.

IMO `map` is a really bad example for the point that OP is trying to make, since it's almost everywhere these days.

FlatMap might be a better example, but people call `.then` on Promises all the time.

I think it might just be familiarity at this point. Generally, programming has sort of become more `small f` functional. I'd call purely functional languages like Haskell Capital F Functional, which are still quite obscure.

[Sardtok]

Well, he responded to someone saying the type signature of map was more complicated than ANY C construct.

[catlifeonmars]

Fair point