[nozzlegear]

> These seem to go both ways btw, e.g. Chinese people being amazed that we really do need to pay for ambulance rides and that it’s not just govt propaganda. People are going where interesting things are happening, it’s plain and simple.

Sadly, since Rednote is monitored and censored by the CCP, the novelty and depth of those 'wow, your country is really like that?' conversations is rather one-sided. You can bet if the conversation is going to paint a country in a negative light (e.g. Ambulance rides), that country probably isn't going to be China.

[surfpel]

Great point! I hope all those Americans who can't afford basic necessities in this so-called 'developed country' can take solace in the existence of Chinese censorship. Now they can even take solace in the expansion of American censorship!

In the end, what was the real revolutionary propaganda that the American establishment is afraid of? True cost of living statistics.

[nozzlegear]

Actually I think you missed the point. The point wasn't that Americans can talk about anything we want; it's that the Chinese can't talk about the "bad" things that have happened in their country, and many (most?) don't even know about it. If you log into Rednote and ask "What happened on June 4th," you're going to get banned by Chinese censors.

Whereas most Americans know that health insurance is some babyback bullshit that might have worked at one time but doesn't work anymore; and that cost of living is too high in certain cities. The fact that we're sitting here typing at each other about it is proof positive.

[surfpel]

There's a lot to unpack here.

> The point wasn't that Americans can talk about anything we want

Did you even read my comment?

> it's that the Chinese can't talk about the "bad" things that have happened in their country

Wrong / highly misleading. Do you really think a country of 1.4 billion people can raise themselves out of poverty and overall dramatically raise the living standards for the masses without having a government that listens to the concerns of the people all across the country?

> If you log into Rednote and ask "What happened on June 4th," you're going to get banned by Chinese censors

I bet you the entire GDP of Canada that you don't know "what happened on June 4th".

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html

What you are describing here, anti-establishment propaganda, is precisely the reasoning cited for the TikTok ban to begin with, and exactly the reason China has their firewall. So... uh... yeah?

Also VPN's are widely used in China so it really doesn't support your claim.

> Whereas most Americans know that health insurance is some babyback bullshit that might have worked at one time but doesn't work anymore; and that cost of living is too high in certain cities

Exactly! This proves how structurally powerless American freedom of speech is to enact real change. How is it that there were able to secure social services and unprecedented poverty reduction, or even had the political desire to?

> The fact that we're sitting here typing at each other about it is proof positive.

This proves precisely zero things. This isn't even related to anything you said.

"The fact that we're discussing how broken healthcare is proves everything is fine!"

[JetSpiegel]

Did you read your own link past the first paragraph?

> GALLO SAW MANY CASUALTIES BROUGHT INTO THE SQUARE AND DID NOT DOUBT THAT HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE IN BEIJING WERE KILLED BY THE ARMY ON JUNE 3 AND 4.

Yes, a Chilean diplomat was seen as neutral, but was then debriefed by the Americans two weeks later.

[surfpel]

There's plenty more evidence out there that answers your other questions. That's just to refute the main concept of a 'fish in a barrel' style massacre that's been fed to us. Media also don't tell you that the protests were largely due to economic inequality and corruption that came as a direct, predicted result of economic liberalization from Deng. Consider also that the masses were literally JUST mobilized to seek out capitalism and destroy it violently during the cultural revolution when suddenly the elites in their society opened up to capitalism and even participated. They also don't tell you about the soldiers who were burned alive or shot by protesters, prior to any gunfire. Of a million there, between 300-600 protesters and plenty of soldiers too, wheras the media pushes the narrative that thousands were slaughtered like fish in a barrel in the middle of the square. Overall a tragic event and why social stability is so important, but it's not the "spirit of an oppressed people" that we're always told it is, they're just building the pretext for a "war of liberation" or other hostilities.

This is active propaganda. You think the Gov spends billions on propaganda overseas and they make no effort internally? I mean think about it for a moment.

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/china-cold-war-2669160202/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird#External...