[rhatsf]

Of course the Ukrainians matter. That is why they should have accepted the Istanbul agreement (confirmed by Naftali Bennett and not the Russians) after the illegal and horrible Russian invasion instead of fighting a U.S. proxy war and dying for nothing.

[rat87]

Ukraine refused it because they couldn't trust the Russians especially after the Bucha massacre. How is it a proxy war?

[ckozlowski]

You mean this one that he walked back? https://web.archive.org/web/20241213114710/https://www.busin...

How is it a proxy war? Again, you frame your argument as though is the U.S. driving everything, and that the Ukrainians have no agency or say. On one hand, you take shots at the U.S. as running roughshod over other country's wishes, and yet in your very same argument, deny that these nations have any say of their own.

Try this one on: The Ukrainians don't want to stop fighting, because they want their land and people back. They were given a security guarantee once, handed over their nuclear weapons as part of it, and that guarantee was ignored. They're not going to be burned twice.

If I were a Ukrainian, I'd find it rather insulting to be told that I was "dying for nothing" and that my country's sovereignty didn't matter, and that furthermore, I wasn't part of a real country (as Putin attests) but just some U.S. puppet.

[corimaith]

It's quite obvious there a Russian shills all over this thread...